Hi. I am a member of the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." (We're known as Mormons) In my experience living in different communities, I have noticed that many people (unfortunately) have the consensus that we are not Christian. How can that be, I wonder, since the church was founded by Christ, and restored in these latter days? It is based on all the same doctrine and principles which He taught during His earthly ministry. I am really interested to hear your viewpoints of why we (member's of Christ's church) are/ aren't Christian. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

p.s. have a great day, and make the most of life!

First of all, don't you have a second book, called the "Book of Morman"?

(Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of this)

The thing that makes Mormans non christians is that because you serve "Another Jesus" I believe, you believe (Correct me if I'm wrong) That when you die you can become a God, and rule your own planet, and have Babies for the rest of your life?

And...well "The Book of Morman" Was written by a man, their was no man that wrote another book, and the Lord and Jesus Christ never appeared to anyone and told them to "Create their own religion"

Also, do you believe that Jesus Christ, and Lucifer were brothers, and that whole story?

(Don't worry anyone I'm not Morman, my Pastor was just talking about how other religions serve "Other Jesus" So I remember all this heh

^^If u saw that in a Harsh way sorry, but I really mean it in the nicest way I could think of for a debate thread

This post has been edited by WolfWood: Nov 10 2005, 11:19 PM

Welcome to the forum. The first thing I think you should do is define each point that you believe differently from the average, non-denominational, Christian. This would include the Book of Mormon and any doctrinal teachings by Joseph Smith, etc. Then we can have a proper debate. There are different Mormons who may believe only certain things.

NOTE TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO PLANS TO POST HERE: Please don't bombard this person, obviously they may believe differently from many of the other people on this forum. I am sure you will be compelled to post and say "no, your beliefs are wrong" but please do not. Post if you plan to have an intelligent debate on an issue not addressed or an argument unaddressed already in the thread.

okay er i kinda talked to a girl at school about this......she's a mormon.....and she's pretty strict about it all, but she says theyre not under the 'umbrella' of christianity. that's why i say they aren't. thats all from me.

Ok, so I know I left the site... lol, but this is a new and relavent topic that I may debate in.

Would it be ok (mods and ryankennyZ) if we restricted this debate to ryankennyZ, Apologeticbynature and I? And perhaps any other mormon that comes to the site? If so, I'd be more than willing to participate in this debate, and I think it'd allow ryankennyZ to make his points without getting them drowned, but still be able to be reasonably answered.

Excuse me...what makes me so different then you?

>.> Fine I'll leave jeese could have asked lol...

Although who said if I would be downing him?

No no, he said that because often times when new people of other beliefs come onto the site, they get bombarded by tons and tons of post and end up leaving because they cannot keep up. It wasn't a personal issue, it was to prevent the person from being piled on. lol

*Sigh*

Then it kind of misses the whole thing of debating, I mean you do need other points of perspectives ya know?

Although I know what your saying, so no problem, ^.^

ryankennyZ-

It would be awesome if you could give us a rundown on your basic beliefs.

I really don't know much about the Mormons (there arn't too many of them in my area, there's mostly Luthrens and Catholics in my state), and this would be a great oppertunity to hear straight from someone in the denomination.

I agree that this thread should be more of a civil question/answer style. Theres a lot of "bashing" of some Christian denominations on here (such as Catholics, Mormons, and so on) that is not needed.

Haha, yeah, but most of the perspectives that people will post are "No, I believe Mormanism is a cult." and things like that, entire posts will consist of this.

Anyways, lets get on with the debate and await for a reply from our Mormon brother.

Yeah I hear what you mean, each of us that believes in Christ though (Christians etc...) know the truth so yeah...

All of us has no right to bash one another

"Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone."

We all have sinned therefore we can't bash one other...

I won't say anyone is in a cult till I've looked at what they believed b/c I've been told that I'm in a cult as well(stupid ignorant peopole)

Anyways, I guess why a lot of ppl say you aren't Christian is because like it says above, you have the "Book of Mormon" We're told that God's word is complete, and needs no adding. Then again, that's what I've been taught, and we've been taught different, so I will erspect that.

I too would like to hear what the Mormon beliefs are

i was goign to post here but i have decided to not per your request. I look forward to seeing what you have to say here...but keep in mind you can't keep them out---
oh and debating on whether or not you can post here is pointless...i say to wolfwood: let's step out and see what happens....we might agree
-Ricky

Sure...

I'll step out...

*Steps out* lolz

I don't really know anything about it. It would be cool if someone could maybe post a link or something to a Mormon web site.

Storm- www.mormon.org .

Thanks Jordan.

Looking at a brief summary of Mormon beliefs I picked out 2 main differences between Mormon doctrine and standard Christian beliefs.

Firstly the part about the Book of Mormon. Christians believe that the Bible is the only Word of God.

Secondly it says Mormons believe families will stay together forever. The Bible says that in Heaven you shall not be married or given in marriage which kinda implies that family connections and that wont be valid.

So that's just at a quick glimps I'll post more later.

Due to Tylers request.. I wont "bombaird" him... But I will ask questions...

You never stated all of your beliefs, so I may ask wrong questions

How did Jesus have a sister if there are no records?...

I will ask them one at a time so I dont ambush you

www.exmormon.org is another good example for those looking into the mormon religion. It is from a person who is no longer in the cult, but is willing to reveal many of the hidden deep dark secret rituals and rites of this group!

2 sides = a more informed opinion!

BTW, you guys notice that they have stopped posting!? I have been in many of these debates before with mormons... when the pressure gets tight, they will disapear! Either that or they will claim their Bishop forbid them from debate any more! Just watch...

This post has been edited by pastortravis: Nov 11 2005, 03:48 PM

From what I've seen on the web sites and stuff I'd say that Mormons can't really be Christians seeing as there is a lot of differences in the 2 beliefs. And I mean BIG differences.

To be Christian you must believe in the Bible as the Truth and Word of God. Mormons appear not to believe this.

Mormons believe it... just depends on your definition of believe. They believe in so far as it is translated correctly so long as it doesn't contradict the book of mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and especially their current prophet/president.

Welcome
I am very curious, what is the Mormon church service like? Is it organized (set book of prayers, a liturgy)?
What is the difference between a Mormon bishop and say a Roman Catholic bishop?
James

Where does the Bible say that you can't be married in Heaven? And what is your basis on why the Bible is the only word of God? Do you think God would only reveal things to the Eastern Hemisphere, and only for certain period of time?

- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978);


The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts.

The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true.

Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son.

They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?


Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the "First Vision." The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later.


In 1828, eight years after he supposedly had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.


Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones."

Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered "great persecution" for telling people of his vision.


The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon.

No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."


Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (described as a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place. NOTES


The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture.

But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story.

In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic, as proven by recent DNA studies), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.


The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.


Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church.

For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race.


Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there.

Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters.


Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived.

A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.


Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster.

To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet NOTES. A recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged.

The church and its "prophet, seer and revelator" accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide.


The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day.

Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.


Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned.

Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father);

- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);

- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);



- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities);

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.


Joseph Smith's early revelations were collected and first published in 1833 in the Book of Commandments. God (as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants Sections 1 and 67) supposedly testified by revelation that the revelations as published were true and correct.

Because the Book of Commandments did not receive wide distribution (most copies were destroyed by angry opponents of the Mormons in Missouri, where it was published), they were republished - with additional revelations - as the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835 in Kirtland, Ohio.

However, many of the revelations as published in Kirtland differed fundamentally from their versions as originally given. The changes generally gave more power and authority to Smith, and justified changes he was making in church organization and theology. The question naturally arises as to why revelations which God had pronounced correct needed to be revised.


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1835. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation.

Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham.

The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.

- The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version.

- The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them.

He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants.

Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred.


Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons.

At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God."


Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history. NOTES


Mormonism includes many other unusual doctrines which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These doctrines are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than "milk" as doctrine.

The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy: NOTES


God was once a man like us.

God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.

God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.

God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.

We can become like God and rule over our own universe.

There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.

Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father

Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.

We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.

"God" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament.

In the the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.

Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.

Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.

The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.


http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

This post has been edited by Jehovah'sdaughter: Nov 11 2005, 07:35 PM

pastor travis-thank you for your views on our church. I have a few questions: Where is your Faith? Remember, the earth IS flat. It IS the center of the universe. Science is ALWAYS correct. If you couldn't tell, I'm being sarcastic. I have read the Bible and the Book of Mormon, and have gained a testimony of the truthfulness of the principles that the Lord has shared with us. They don't contradict each other. The only contradiction I see here is within your understanding of many principles. Have you read and prayed about the Book of Mormon? We are not a cult; rather a faithful people with the restored gospel who are persecuted by people with weak testimonies of Christ.