It seems to be almost universally agreed upon that free will is the major reason for all the evil that exists in the world. Presumably God would never intentionally make us evil, after all, so if we were simply created without free will then we'd never commit any sin, we'd all be going to heaven, and everyone would be happy. OK, fair enough. For whatever reason, God created life so that he could be worshipped. I don't know why. Maybe floating around in the cosmos for eternity leaves you in desperate need of attention. That's beside the point.

But is our will really as free as we believe? After all, we're basically stuck in a situation where we have to worship God or end up in hell. Those are our options. Obedience or torment.

What does that sound like to you? If you answered "slavery", I don't blame you.

Oh, but hold on. "God doesn't actually 'send' people to hell! They are simply doomed to go there because of their sin, and the only way they can overcome that is through God! God allows us the freedom to choose our fate!"

OK. So how come we're not given the option of whether we want to exist or not?

Think about it. Suppose I lock you in a room, and once you're inside that room, I have no control over what happens to you. If you proclaim me as your king, the door will swing open again, you'll be free, and I'll reward you. If you don't, the room will fill up with water and you'll drown. I can't directly influence you one way or another, nor can I open the door for you; you have to save yourself.

Is that acceptable behaviour?

OK, granted, you can escape from the situation unscathed. You have the choice of life or death, reward or torment. But does that absolve me of blame? No. I'm the one who forced you into that situation to begin with. You didn't ask to be put inside that room, did you? And yet there you are.

The only circumstance under which I have done nothing wrong in this situation is that of me giving you the choice to enter the room in the first place. If I allow you to make an informed decision, and it's completely up to you whether you enter the room or not, then and only then is what happens to you entirely on your own head.

Explain to me how the situation here on Earth is any different. This is our room with the locked door. We're placed in a situation where we're forced to choose between heaven or hell, and we don't get any say in the matter whatsoever. I certainly don't recall being given any opportunity to make an informed decision over whether to exist or not.

This post has been edited by Secundus: Jul 30 2009, 10:49 AM

I don't really believe free will fully exists, myself, because I believe that true free will would involve one in which we aren't influenced by any sort of supernatural outside force.

I don't actually believe in a literal hell myself, I follow the interpretation that hell is basically just death. In such a belief, God and Jesus are seen as more of a way of salvation rather than giving you an eternal punishment. In this belief, to reject God/Jesus would be to reject the offer of a new life in which death has no power.

I'm curious as to what you make of all this "lake of fire" talk in the Bible, then. In fact, I'm pretty sure the words "everlasting punishment" are used directly once or twice.

I'll try to explain. While I don't have a reference on hand, I think it was Sodom or Gamorrah or both which were described as an "eternal fire" but there wasn't a fire which went on forever and one or the other or both burned out.

I believe it to be saying of such a thing something along the line of describing an eternal death or destruction.

Another problem with the idea of a literal eternal hell, as some might believe, is who is in control of such a thing? Would God punish someone for eternity, and spend eternity doing it? If someone says "the devil", I can point out verses suggesting that the devil fell to earth and that he is on earth.

I try to study on this subject. I could probably send you a link to some study about it but the information on the site will probably be quite a bit different than the messages of typical Christiananity.

This post has been edited by HlMelody: Jul 30 2009, 11:12 AM

While I believe in the sovereign elect, I still think we have free will to continuously follow the faith or not (we do NOT, however, have the power to step into righteousness without first being called by God). And no comment on the interpretation of Hell, it does not relate to me so there would be no point.

I'm still trying to figure it out; and believe me, if I'm still trying to figure out, it's unlikely others here might know. I'll PM a few people who might if they have an answer, though.

My best answer is that perhaps the choice of losing awareness of our existence is an option; a Hell of different modes. It wouldn't be annihilation; technically the person would still exist, they would simply be unaware. For other people who wanted to stand in open assault of God, then a different mode of Hell for them I would suppose.

I really wanted to post on CTF somewhere because I haven't done it in forever and this looked like a good little thread to lie low in. So here I am.



I can show you a whole theology on those two topics that will totally rock your world if you want. Just sayin'.

For the record, the point you make about free will not being completely free if we aren't given a choice to live is perfectly valid. That's why I believe in free will subject to God. We are free to live, free to do anything within the capabilities of our lives. But it is a limited freedom because we are always subject to our Sovereign Father God. This not only includes not being given the choice of whether we wanted to be born or not, but also other things-- like how I can't just fly (like a bird--no airplane) to Venice for the weekend. We are restricted by real limitations. And nothing to do about it.

However, I don't believe it is 'worship or torment'. I think every human being is in a budding relationship with God whether they realize it or not and that this relationship continues on far beyond physical death-- I believe in the spiritual progression of all souls and the final reunion of every living spirit with its Creator.

EDIT: I had an interesting thought, though: how do you know you weren't asked and then were made to forget it? Just hypothetically. What if every human being that's ever lived already decided that they wanted to enter life?



My big problem with annihilationism as an answer for this particular question is that it only takes the original problem of 'worship or torment' and makes it 'worship or death'. After all, death is still a punishment for the sin committed, isn't it?

This post has been edited by Atlantis: Jul 30 2009, 01:13 PM

What I mentioned seems a little hard to follow when I try to describe it in my own words. I get the feeling that there is a difference between the two as you try to use either understanding when trying to read the Bible, but such a thing is a little hard to describe because it involves trying to reason in a way which doesn't directly quote the Bible.

To not directly quote the Bible for a second and say what I envision, I envision a sort of chaos before Jesus came. Even if it is only a mere metaphorical chaos. I don't completely understand the whole good vs. evil (God vs. Lucifer) battle but I picture that, by such a time, all should probably get God's wrath for the sake of rebellion. If we are attached to the devil through sin, then we would probably deserve the same final destruction which Revelations tells the devil will get. But instead God sends a prince (His son) to make a way for an eternal life.

And why do you suppose this isn't mentioned anywhere? Is that not important information?



Well if that's the case then what you do in this life is of no real importance, is it? I mean, if everything's going to work out for me anyway, what difference does it make if I worship him while I'm alive?



How do you know you weren't brought into existence at this very second and that all your memories aren't simply fabrications? How do you know that you chose to believe and aren't just being manipulated by God so that you think you have free will?

That said, I think the simplest answer is that if God does indeed have the qualities ascribed to him, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to make me forget, would it? Does God not want me to think he is benevolent and fair?

This post has been edited by Secundus: Jul 30 2009, 03:15 PM

For clarification, mentioned where? In the Bible?

Yes. Unless Christianity has some other central religious text that I'm not aware of.

Incidentally:



I have a question for those of you who subscribe to this school of thought.

Do you think that a baby that dies a few minutes after being born will go to hell? If not, why not? Does God make an exception for them? If so, doesn't that mean that God can prevent those who do not worship him from going to hell?

I've heard it said that God is simply giving unbelievers what they want; separation from him. But that's not necessarily what they want at all. I mean, really. If I said that I had a bird that lays golden eggs and that I'll give it to you if you do something for me, you'd probably just assume I was talking nonsense. That doesn't imply that you wouldn't want such a bird if you actually believed that the bird existed.

So what's the story, then? If God doesn't "send" people to hell, and he does have control over who goes to hell and who doesn't, why let anyone go to hell?

This post has been edited by Secundus: Jul 30 2009, 05:00 PM

If men didn't sin there is a chance that they wouldn't have children (since they could've lived forever).

Well, the Bible is not a work of catechesis or apologetics. Its the duty of the Church to define, explain, and defend her beliefs to the world. The Church uses the Bible to help formulate their own beliefs, particularly those that are matters of revelation. But things that don't need to be revealed to be known (the fact that human beings evolved, for instance) can obviously be grasped without appeals to written revelation.



My answer to the first question is neither yes or no; I will say I don't know, that it could go both ways. I am an adamant believer in the power of free will and self-determination and the fact that God, creating it, respects it. I believe (and this is speculation that I'm pretty sure of) God allows all people a choice; for those who die without being able to make the choice in this life, they will be allowed to make the choice. Would any reject God? I don't know, but I can imagine that some would. On the other hand, I would imagine that some also choose Him.

So, it's not a matter of exception, because God is technically saving all those who worship Him (in my belief).



The analogy is a little off on two accounts;

1) I would think that if one could give evidence of such a bird, then the denial of the bird even in the face of the evidence constitutes more of whether we choose the bird at all.

2) There is the possibility that people are honestly deceived in something; I'm confident there has been at least one atheist who honestly believed there was no God despite spending his whole life searching, and just overlooked one flaw in the reasoning why they thought there was no God.

I believe God gives us all a choice but it's hard to believe we can make that choice on our own.

If we are created by one and brought into the family, we are sons and daughters of them, being subject to them, being heirs to a promise. But until we are of age, we are like slaves, who are instructed by and ought to be obedient to their master. But if a son or daughter chooses to not do so, but leaves the estate of their parents, rejecting the promise to them, they do so of their own volition and suffer the fate of which they made for themselves. But oh how the father wishes for their child to return, waiting at the door, ready to take them back. Happy are they who await the promise, being instructed and obedient to their parents, as if slaves, so that one day they will be lifted up higher than the slaves.

Of course! This life is of great and wonderful importance... Think of it this way: You went through childhood all those years ago. Now you're (presumably) a teenager and you've changed a great deal. Does that mean that your childhood was of no purpose? The human lifespan to me is something like the infancy of the soul.

You can't honestly live a life on this planet and never think there is a grander meaning....




Fair enough. It was just a passing thought.

I'm sure there are quite a few things in the Bible that could have been worked out without having to be explicitly explained, but it does it anyway.

Besides, how long has it been now? And still nobody has a definite answer? If God inspired the Bible in such a way that everyone would think that hell means fire and torment and whatnot, it's still on his shoulders.



It constitutes an unwillingness to admit fault. You'd be surprised at how much evidence a person can ignore when they're completely assured of being right.

Actually, no. You probably wouldn't. You seem like the type to enjoy a good debate, so you've probably seen the results of selective blindness more than once.



And do they go to hell? Or do you also not know the answer to that?

This is what I don't understand. The Bible clearly states that those who do not believe will end up in the lake of fire, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and so on and so forth, whatever you interpret that to mean. It does not say that that an unbeliever who tried and failed to find God will be exempt from this. It doesn't say that anyone will be exempt from it. Whatever conclusions you may have reached on your own, you cannot deny that there are many, many people who simply opt for the literal interpretation of "If you don't believe, you're damned. End of story." And why should they not? Is the word of God not supposed to be absolute?

So why is the Bible written in such a way when so many people are misled by it? Could the message not have been clearer? Could we not have new writers of the Gospel so as to eliminate the countless difficulties in translating and interpreting the original texts?



A son or daughter can do this and still end up living a perfectly happy life. Granted, it'll take a lot of good fortune and hard work, but it's still quite possible.

Can I live a good life in hell?



Yes. To me. Because it's mine. That's not the same as having objective importance.

Besides, I didn't ask if my life had no importance. I asked if what I do is of no importance in terms of my salvation. I mean, according to your reasoning, I could spend my entire life pillaging and murdering and cursing God and all he stands for, and it wouldn't make any difference in the end because I'm going to be saved anyway. So what reason do I actually have to worship him, then?



Yes. Yes I can.

I think Tim Minchin said it best:

"Isn’t this enough?
Just this world?
Just this beautiful, complex
Wonderfully unfathomable world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?
If you’re so into Shakespeare
Lend me your ear:
'To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,
To throw perfume on the violet… is just f***ing silly'
Or something like that."

Your misunderstanding, for the promise we have is eternal life, and to reject that is to deny yourself that eternal life. There is a parable I'd like you to read, called the Lost Son, its found in Luke 15. Paul also talks about this, when he likens us to clay, and God the potter. Who are we, the clay, to demand anything of the potter? For we are nothing unless the potter sees fit to fashion us into something useful. And if the potter doesn't mold us into what we like, who are we to protest? For we are a worhtless lump before He formed us, but now we are being fit to be molded into something both useful and pleasing to the potter.

I view this life as a time were we decide what we want for eternity. Whereas one choice leads to death, the other leads to life, that being Christ. But how dim our eyes, and how childish our understanding of things, that if we didn't have a light, a book, a Holy Spirit, we would all choose death, unable to see what lies ahead on the pathways.

I had a rather long-winded response to this in mind, but I think it can be condensed into two points.

Firstly, if the "clay" has sentience and free will, and the potter professes be benevolent and to love the clay, the potter should first be asking the clay if it wants to be fashioned. But he isn't.

Secondly, read my first post again.

Do you think it's OK for me to lock you in that room or don't you?



Belief is not a matter of choice. You cannot simply decide to believe something of which you have not first been convinced, nor can you disbelieve something of which you have been convinced.

This post has been edited by Secundus: Jul 31 2009, 11:13 AM

But the potter doesn't mold all the clay, as I said. We are molded when we have come to Christ, being transformed.

I have read your first post, but I disagree with it. We aren't in a locked room, where the only way to get out is to say Abba Abba, save me, for God did not create this world to lock us away so we must choose so, but created it and us for both His glory, and our benefit. For it is better to be, than not to be, even if we suffer for a short time in doing so.

Belief is absolutely a matter of choice, that is why we become convicted on matters, by choosing to believe them, even if the evidence is unseen. Is that not what faith is? The assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen? Christ said, "you have seen, and have believed, but blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe."

And yet here we are, stuck in this world and having to make just such a choice. And he did so knowing that this would be the case.



Which he doesn't need.

This has always been a sticking point for me. Why does God need to glorify himself? What could possibly cause a being that is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent to be possessed by such a petty, selfish and pointless desire? If he's perfect then he knows he's perfect, and should not need to create a planet full of lapdogs in the hopes that they will affirm it for him.



Who says? What of those that disagree? Why should we not be given the choice?



You believe because faith is enough for you. However, you are not everyone. People differ in what they need to be convinced. Not everyone is content to simply sit back and say "Well, I don't know, but I'll just have faith."

Do you really think, right now, that you could just suddenly stop believing in God?

True, He could have destroyed the entire world and started over, but we were made in His image, and He loves us. Therefore He gave us a way out, by sending Christ.





Why would you be in the position to deem what God does or doesn't need?




Perhaps God instead wanted to create beings in His likeness and have companionship with us, as we see God trying to do from the very beginning.





The choice in existing here on earth? If so, that makes no sense, we can't choose without existing in the first place.




Lets not jump to assumptions about me please. And I've been from christian to atheist, agnostic to deist, to christian. There is evidence for belief out there if one seeks it, but Christ said that those who require direct evidence would still reject it if they choose to, and have before. Ultimately, only the softening of hearts by the Spirit can bring people to Christ, for those who have hardened hearts will reject the message even under miracles. See pharaoh's rejection when Moses came to him. Christ was in the flesh, and people rejected Him, they who ought to have known Him best. Yet the gentiles, who knew the least concerning it, were more easily accepting of the message. Everyone comes to Christ through different means, but unless the heart is ready, the message will fall on deaf ears.

That's just it. You could spend your life pillaging and murdering and cursing God... but he still forgives you. He still saved you, even you. Hitler, Nero, Paul, Gandhi, everyone. Already saved. Right now. Because of Christ's work on the cross. Sounds like a pretty good reason to worship him to me....

Going back to the idea of the infant soul... life is of every importance because it is a part of your walk with God. Even when you're a toddler and your terrible and you yell and scream and hit your parents... they're not going to stop loving you (if they're worth much). You don't just have your childhood to choose how you feel about them. You have an entire lifespan.

So, no, your time spent on earth is completely independent of your ultimate salvation because you're already saved. It's just a matter of you falling in love with God and God is very lovely. You will be healed and you will be loved because you are his beloved child.



But isn't it rather silly not to see the full painting? To only look at how the Master painted life in the eyes and refuse to notice the fine detail in the portrait's clothing? I guess what I'm trying to say is, yes, this world is enough, more than enough.... But that doesn't change the fact that there's an entire universe out there to look at.

But that's nice poetry. I like it. I'll have to look him up.

Or he could just, you know, give us the choice of existing.



God is perfect, yes? Omnipotent? Omniscient? OK. How can such a being possibly "need" anything? I mean, what's going to happen if he isn't glorified? He's not going to wither away and die, is he?



Worship is not my idea of companionship. And if all he wanted was companionship, it fails to explain why he would create a situation in which those who don't acknowledge him (and not necessarily through any fault of their own) get screwed over.



Yes. The choice of existing on earth. With all the suffering and hardship that this may entail. There's no reason why God couldn't pop us into heaven for a few minutes and say "Hey, I'm about to send you to Earth. Things might be a bit rough for you down there, but if you play your cards right, you'll get to spend eternity here. If you'd rather just not exist, though, that's OK."



And, in some cases, have not.

My point was that beliefs are not something you can just switch on and off at will; they are shaped by your experiences and who you are as a person. Whatever you've experienced and learned in your life was enough to convince you that God exists. That does not mean it's enough for everyone, and if someone is not convinced, they can't just snap their fingers and start believing anyway. Also, it's entirely possible that someone in the in the process of being convinced will die before it comes to fruition.

I'll ask you again; Could you, right now, stop believing in God just like that?



So what's the point of even sending us to Earth in the first place?

Also, doesn't that mean there's no reason whatsoever for me not to become a mass murderer? Potential jail time aside.



And your explanation for the Bible claiming that God hates sinners and all this lake of fire business is...?

Our choices are eternal joy, or eternal torment. Man was made to have a relationship with God, and we cannot meet our full potential until we have that relationship. A man doing the works of evil is like a drill bit meant for wood being used on metal. The bit will not be very effective, and will become damaged and useless in a short time as it was not made for that purpose. Only when the bit does what it was created to do will it meet it's full potential. A man without God is never truly happy or at peace.



And I'd call that answer selfish and coming from a sinful perspective. As I said, man was made to have a relationship with God, to love God. God is not a dictator so He gave us the choice to choose Him, otherwise it would not be real love. If someone was forced to hang out with you and like you would you really feel liked?



Who are you to judge the perfect God's behavior?



Wrong? You owe your very existence to God because He sought a relationship with you and you are so selfish you'd rather not exist then be His friend?



Without existence you'd have no opportunity. You have no place to say what God should and should not have done. You were made with the choice to do what you were made to do, what will bring you eternal joy and peace, but you'd rather take immediate yet temporal pleasure instead by living a life of sin.

As John 3:16 says, God loves you so much, and desires a relationship with you, His creation, that He sent His own son to die for your sins so you wouldn't have to pay for them yourself, and so you could live with Him in eternity, doing what you were made to do and what is best for you.