Asking Saints to mediate for us would make a Saint a mediator. But the Bible is clear only Jesus Christ can be a mediator between God and man. So would asking Saint's to pray for us be mediation?

Also, can Saint's hear 1 billion prayers at once and pray to God to help 1 billion out. Does this make Saints omnipotent? Is this Biblical by any means?

Taken from
http://www.christianteenforums.com/Pope-Pr....html&st=25

It depends, do you want the Biblical version or the pagan version?

No it doesn't make that mediation because only Christ is the Mediator between us and God.

Then what does, "being a mediator" mean?

The act of mediating; intervention.

Thats what I got from the dictionary.

This post has been edited by Ronald: Oct 31 2009, 05:21 PM

Since context is king, perhaps we ought to examine the verses directly above the one you are referencing:

"I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour. . ." (First Timothy 2:1-3)

I don't think anyone would argue that praying for others is wrong; or that asking others to pray for us is wrong. What you really disagree with is the Catholic doctrine of the Communion of Saints.

This post has been edited by Maria_AMDG: Nov 1 2009, 11:45 AM

And the Virgin Mary. After the mediator, the mediatrix of the whole world.

Don't misconstrue us:
"Saint Thomas Aquinas argued that only Christ can be the perfect mediator between God and mankind. But this does not hinder the fact that others are called mediator because they assist and prepare the union between God and man. There is no question among Catholic theologians, that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and the human race.

But this does not exclude a participation of the Virgin Mary (and the saints) vicariously in the one mediatorship of her Son. Early indications of this notions go back to a prayer attributed to St Ephrem the Syrian (306-373):"--Wiki

Well, the question for me comes down to is Jesus Christ really our one and only mediator to God? 1 John 2:3 would seem to sugest this by saying:
Two problems with using this as proof. First off, it doesn't claim that Jesus is our only Advocate, and also the exact same word Advocate is used again in John 14:16-17:

I doubt you guys will believe me based off of these two verses, so I took it to the orignal Greek these are the verses in their greek and I've bolded the repeated word:



So, Christ is a mediator betwen us and God, and the Holy Spirit is a mediator between us and God, but they both mediate in very, very different ways. Christ is our savior and our king. He died for us, he took on our sins to make us right with the Lord. He mediates that way, while the Holy Spirit prays for us for we know not how to pray for ourselves. The Holy Spirit guides us in our day to day life and shows us the path that God wants for us. That is His work.

In the same way, your friends who pray for you are mediators between God and yourself. They pray for you when you need them to. They go between you and God when you do not have the strength to do it for your selve. They mediate. The Saints do this as well. It is impossible to separate the Body of Christ, in life or in death, so they too are like our friends here on earth, who pray for us, who mediate for us when we are unable to pray for ourselves.

As for your questions about the ablity of Saints to hear 1 billion Catholics at once, I doubt anyone will be able to provide an answer to that question until we reach heaven. We do not, can not understand how the timeless existence of heaven works. It is possible that this is a side-effect of being timeless. It is possible that God provides other means for Saints to hear us. Really, there is no way of knowing, except that we know that the Body of Christ is one.

edit: BTW, It's interesting that you posted this the night before All Saint's Day, the largest celebration of the Saints on the Catholic Calender. Happy All Saints Day to everyone!

This post has been edited by Zabby: Nov 1 2009, 01:47 PM

I don't know about you, but I plan on continuing to pray after my temporal life here is finished; "Pray without ceasing." (1 Thessalonians 5:17)

As to mediators, while Christ is the only mediator between man and God, this does not mean there can be "co-" or "sub-mediators;" people who mediate between us and Jesus. We mediate on behalf of people when we pray for them, we ask people to mediate for us when we ask them to pray for us.

Unless you wish to say that we ought not pray for each other, then you are advocating we do pray for each other, in which case you are advocating by extension that we offer supplications on behalf of each other.

About Saints being able to hear our prayers; you cannot rightly describe their experience in Heaven equivocally with our experience here on earth. Earth is temporal, Heaven is atemporal. That's at least one important distinction to make; thus, a Saint does not need to be omnipotent or omniscient to be able to pray for a potentially infinite amount of causes. To limit the Saints in this way is to limit Heaven, and so to limit God.

No, the Saints are not mediators between God the Father and Man. Jesus mediator between God the Father and Man. All the verses that Protestants throw out at Catholics about Jesus being the "only mediator between God and Man" are referring specifically to God the Father.
Those verses have nothing to do with the intercessions of the Saints as Roman Catholics do not see Saints as mediators between God the Father and Man.

Happy All Saints Day btw! Holy Saints in heaven, pray for us!

12Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.
16Be joyful always; 17pray continually; 18give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

By your logic in Heaven we will respect those who work hard among you, we will warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone, make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong and always be kind to eachother and everyone else. We will be joyful always pray without ceasing and give thanks in all circumstances. '

I'm not saying your wrong, but thats not a very good verse to give to prove that saints can mediate for us.

So this is more or less a guess with no other evidence to back it up?

I don't actually see what's wrong with that, for certainly we are not absolutely separated from our brethren here on earth? I'd watch over my little sister if I could, to make sure she was as good as she could be.



It would be a guess either way, if I didn't have the Church. At the very least, the argument "You need to proscribe omniscience to Saints to be able to pray to them" is unsound.

You would warn those who are idle, encourage the timid and make sure nobody pays back wrong for wrong? Again, assumptions based on nothing.

A Protestant wouldn't guess one way or another because of nothing to back up this claim either way. If there was some evidance of this, well that would be a different story.

Assumptions? Why are these assumptions? I'm assuming I would want to? That's not the kind of existence I'd like to have as a Saint in Heaven. In fact, that sounds very lonely. I don't imagine that God really requires we pretend other people don't exist once we're in Heaven.



Well, Catholics don't believe they're guessing. Protestants are naturally guessing about everything.

By the way, by your logic it will be important to remember these things while you're in Heaven...

19Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.

All of these verses clearly point to a lifestyle on earth. I dont know how "Test everything" and "make sure nobody pays back wrong with wrong" is something you will be cappable of doing while in Heaven. I dont believe these things because there is no evidance of it, not because I'm guessing.

Oh, also be sure to "avoid evil" while in Heaven while holding onto all that is good.

This post has been edited by Ronald: Nov 2 2009, 12:35 AM

I am asserting that the act of intercession from a human, is far different from the act of spiritual mediation which Christ performs.

If anyone dares to declare that anyone other than Jesus Christ may take the place of mediator, that is damnable heresy. Only because Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God and that He lived a perfect life and became the curse that is sin, and atoned for it, all while living in perfection and being the perfect sacrifice, can He rightfully stand as the mediator between God and man. No other being may hold this distinctive place because no other being is without sin.

Intercession on a human level is quite different though. I may do things on behalf of another, but that does not make me a mediator via prayer. It makes me an intercessor.

I'm not understanding precisely the nature of your argument here. Are you saying in Heaven we lose all conscious ability to act, or that once we've attained Heaven we no longer need to be good?

I agree with Zabby on that.
We ARE intervening on their behalf, by praying for them, but we aren't a mediator for their souls, just asking God to act.

Exactly. The Saints in heaven are intercessors, not mediators.

Yes yes, I understand that. The idea is that they can mediate between us and God, but they don't actually mediate unlike what is being taught. They may "think" that mediation is occurring, but only Christ mediates for us.

So then what is talking to Saints? How does one talk to another in the spiritual life without praying?

Who's thinking that mediation is occurring to God but not to God what?

It seems as if you're asserting Catholics believe that Saints can mediate between man and God the Father in place of Christ who is God the Son, which I assure is blatantly false. Catholics believe that we can ask the Saints in Heaven to pray for us and our causes, in a way that is no different from me praying for you or your praying for me.

If you keep perpetuating such ignorance, I would begin to believe you're so sure Catholics are wrong you don't think its worth actually contending against what Catholics really do believe.

So asking Saints to pray for you is like asking your friend to pray to me. So I could be really upset, go to my friend David and ask him to pray for me, then I could go to Mary and ask her to pray for me the same way that I asked David?

Absolutely. That is the fundamental premise of the Communion of Saints; there is no absolute discontinuity between the Church here on earth and the Church in Heaven. While we aren't necessarily aware of the events of Heaven, Heaven is aware of the events here on earth to enough of an extent that when we ask a Saint to pray for us, they are able to receive our wish.

Asking St. Joseph to pray for you is equivocal to asking your friend to pray for you.

You must remember that when Catholics/Orthodox say "Pray to such and such Saint" we are meaning "Ask such and such Saint to pray for us." We use the word "pray" in more senses than Protestants do.

So would you say "Hail Mary's" are useless if we are ment to ask our friends to pray for us the same way we ask saints to?

No, they aren't useless. See what a Hail Mary is;

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners, now and at the our of our death

It is part veneration (and this veneration is not substantially different from the praise you give someone by saying "Good job," mind you, and veneration is in fact a good thing) and part invocation.