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"'Come now, let us reason together,' says the Lord." - Isaiah 1:18

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Utopias, Are they possible?
Zabby
post Nov 4 2009, 11:30 PM
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I've just finished reading Brave New World by Huxley, and it got be to thinking. Is it possible to have a utopia on this earth? And if so how?

I personally do not see how it would be possible. I do not see a way to have a utopia without having a strong central control of some sort, and I believe that people are far to fond of freedoms and the like to ever give it up to that central power. It is late at night and I am going to bed, so I am sorry for not having this idea flushed out more, but I wanted to start this debate before I forgot about it.

edit: by just finished reading, I mean I finished reading like a few months ago, and wrote a research paper about it. tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Zabby: Nov 4 2009, 11:31 PM
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Tickitytak
post Nov 9 2009, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (Aeterna @ Nov 9 2009, 08:48 PM) *
Through these methods, transhumanists seek to eliminate the barriers to a perfect, and therefore can create a utopia.

interesting.. but if everyone is equally capable of anything, doesn't that destroy an individual's persona? everyone would be the same person, the same personality (as in everyone could mimic any personality that they want which 100% efficiency, meaning one's personality is not unique at all). there would be no incentive to create, write or pretty much do anything because everyone else has the same ability to create the exact same thing. once all barriers are eliminated, there's no reason left to live. i think we're meant to exist with these barriers.. it's what gives our existence such significance. each and every one of us are absolutely unique and if we eliminate these differences, the meaning of existence is eliminated as well.

i certainly hope transhumanism does not succeed. it is horribly uninspiring.

This post has been edited by Tickitytak: Nov 9 2009, 09:17 PM
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Yves
post Nov 9 2009, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE
I am not proposing an "elite", but rather a system that surpasses the need for an elite. "Elites" and hierarchal systems are created on the assumption that human nature is naturally malicious. The solution to this malice is to suppress human nature by relying either on a few elites to temper the malice (monarchy), by relying on the good will of everyone to overshadow the malice of a few (democracy), or some system in between.

Instead of merely suppressing human nature, transhumanism instead seeks to fundamentally alter the human condition with the intent of changing the conditions which produce the malicious acts. Elites would be undesirable to transhumanists, because they merely provide a bandaid over a severely bleeding wound. To do change the human condition, transhumanists utilize the aforementioned tools to address the human nature in novel ways.

Take greed for example. Greed, in so far as I can tell, is the product of a limited pool of resources. We are dislike the Jones family for the 75 inch TVs they own, because there is a limited pool of 75 inch TVs. Transhumanists seek to address this by creating an abundance of any desired object through the usage of nanotechnology and post-nuclear power. If you remove the limit on the pool of resources, you remove the need for envy.

Another example would be hatred. I believe that hatred is the product of miscommunication and insufficient knowledge. Groups like the Ku Klux Klan exist, in my opinion, because of an incomplete understanding of what race really means to a human being's character. Using supercomputers and artificial intelligence, transhumanists can eliminate that incomplete understanding by providing complete knowledge about what race really entails, eliminating the unknowing that causes hatred.

Finally, envy, in my opinion, is the product of natural inequalities of a human being's genetic build. We are envious of long distance runners because of their ability to do something we can not. Nanotechnology and genetic modification eliminate the need for this envy by providing these talents to everyone. When I can be just as strong, just as fast, and endure just as much as any other human being, I no longer feel the need to be envious of them.

Through these methods, transhumanists seek to eliminate the barriers to a perfect, and therefore can create a utopia
.

This works only if you assume that human vices (greed etc.) are the results of external circumstances and not internal nature. It relies on the premise that all problems are rational, and therefore rational solutions will succeed in solving them. But as Rousseau argued, men are not completely rational, but consistently behave irrationally because of such confounding factors as emotion. Thus, rational solutions will not solve irrational problems.

You can create a situation in which two rats are absolutely equal. There are no breeding partners, there's endless food, each share an equally confined space, one is genetically identical to the other, etc. But those rats will still fight for dominance because they're programmed to do so. However more rational humans may be, I see no reason why humans shouldn't be subject to the same basic instincts; evolution selects animals with an irrational drive to compete. I would argue that the unbelievably wealthy are not greedy because their supplies are limited; to them, money and substance are no objects. Rather, they suffer from an irrational desire to aggrandize themselves further no matter how dominant they may be.

Assertion that genetic modification or psychological conditioning could alter such "harmful" instincts is, as of yet, speculative. Furthermore, it's by no means a given that everyone would be willing to undergo that conditioning if it were possible, and to impose that treatment on people without their consent would require the existence of a powerful elite willing to impose its will on dissenters, as Aquinas argues. As this is an assault on the fundamental ability of the individual to make his own moral decisions, it represents oppression of the worst kind.

Clockwork Orange and Brave New World both discuss this conflict between transhumanism and free will.

This post has been edited by Yves: Nov 9 2009, 11:55 PM
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AquinasD
post Nov 9 2009, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Aeterna @ Nov 9 2009, 06:48 PM) *
I am not proposing an "elite", but rather a system that surpasses the need for an elite. "Elites" and hierarchal systems are created on the assumption that human nature is naturally malicious. The solution to this malice is to suppress human nature by relying either on a few elites to temper the malice (monarchy), by relying on the good will of everyone to overshadow the malice of a few (democracy), or some system in between.


How will this social transhumanism system be put in place except by an elite? I doubt everyone at the same time will believe your system will work; including me and all those who don't believe that knowledge makes people better.

QUOTE
Take greed for example. Greed, in so far as I can tell, is the product of a limited pool of resources. We are dislike the Jones family for the 75 inch TVs they own, because there is a limited pool of 75 inch TVs. Transhumanists seek to address this by creating an abundance of any desired object through the usage of nanotechnology and post-nuclear power. If you remove the limit on the pool of resources, you remove the need for envy.


Transhumanism might be able to give everyone 75" TV's, but it couldn't give everyone the feeling of power you can only get in politics, the pride you can only get through domination, etc. There are some resources that by their nature are limited and cannot be had by all which more people than can have them will want. Hence, everyone being able to have 75" TV's ignores the real problems at stake, which are inherent in human nature which the mere changing of social or environmental factors couldn't fix in themselves.

That, and as soon as everyone had 75" TV's, there would be people who want even bigger TV's, to have the biggest TV, etc. Just by having more resources doesn't mean everyone will be happy with what they would've otherwise been happy with if there were less resources. Just take the average American consumer; our lives are absolutely amazing and fantastical to the person of the Medieval era, yet we are no happier, there is still just as much crime and corruption.

QUOTE
Another example would be hatred. I believe that hatred is the product of miscommunication and insufficient knowledge. Groups like the Ku Klux Klan exist, in my opinion, because of an incomplete understanding of what race really means to a human being's character. Using supercomputers and artificial intelligence, transhumanists can eliminate that incomplete understanding by providing complete knowledge about what race really entails, eliminating the unknowing that causes hatred.


You cannot force people to learn. Haven't you ever tried to have a discussion with an adamant YEC?

QUOTE
Finally, envy, in my opinion, is the product of natural inequalities of a human being's genetic build. We are envious of long distance runners because of their ability to do something we can not. Nanotechnology and genetic modification eliminate the need for this envy by providing these talents to everyone. When I can be just as strong, just as fast, and endure just as much as any other human being, I no longer feel the need to be envious of them.


As soon as everyone could run a 4 minute mile, there would be people who try and run the 3 minute mile. As soon as that is accomplished, people would strive towards the 2 minute mile, and so on.

Again, you're ignoring human nature. Just making everyone faster than the average citizen is now won't make people happy.

QUOTE
Through these methods, transhumanists seek to eliminate the barriers to a perfect, and therefore can create a utopia.


Your methods are nothing more than band-aids on the problem, and you ignore the roots of these problems. The obvious problems I have listed. What would need to happen is a changing of human nature, not just human condition, and a changing of human nature to produce this utopia would, of course, be nullified by the fact that this could only happen through the nullifying of free will through mind control or brainwashing/psychological conditioning.
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Sinnerman
post Nov 10 2009, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (AquinasD @ Nov 9 2009, 11:00 PM) *
You cannot force people to learn. Haven't you ever tried to have a discussion with an adamant YEC?

Are you saying that YEC people are idiots?
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Unconservative C...
post Nov 10 2009, 11:22 PM
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Pittsburgh.

There is your Utopia.
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AquinasD
post Nov 10 2009, 11:27 PM
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QUOTE (Sinnerman @ Nov 10 2009, 10:10 PM) *
Are you saying that YEC people are idiots?


Not necessarily, just purposefully ignorant. All people are capable of putting their head in the sand to evidence/logic/reasoning they can't reasonably refute.
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mpok1519
post Nov 10 2009, 11:39 PM
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"Pittsburgh.

There is your Utopia."

hehe Shane Botwin.
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Tickitytak
post Nov 11 2009, 01:12 AM
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QUOTE (mpok1519 @ Nov 11 2009, 12:39 AM) *
"Pittsburgh.

There is your Utopia."

hehe Shane Botwin.

gahh i should've caught on to that.
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hisservant
post Nov 11 2009, 03:25 PM
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A perfect society is completely impossible.

Socialism says that man is basically good and that if placed in an ideal society he will be good. But this is wrong...man has a bad nature. Look at the movie The Village. It's a perfect society--no money to fight over, everyone works equally...but everything goes wrong. Jealosy and lust still prevail.

No matter the situation, man will sin. It's a fact...
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Aeterna
post Nov 11 2009, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (hisservant @ Nov 11 2009, 01:25 PM) *
Look at the movie The Village.


What are you talking about? The Village was about a society that isolated itself within a national park, and the problems it had were because the elders fabricated reality.
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Zme
post Nov 13 2009, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE (Aeterna @ Nov 12 2009, 12:18 AM) *
What are you talking about? The Village was about a society that isolated itself within a national park, and the problems it had were because the elders fabricated reality.


It scared me sad.gif
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