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What do you think about this cerse., 1 Corinthians 15:29
h03t
post Oct 29 2009, 07:45 AM
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NLT
QUOTE
29 If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?


KJV
QUOTE
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


Read the context if you want. It starts pretty much at 1 Cor 15:12. Paul is talking about the ressurection of the dead,then he gets to this verse and I'm like, woah hang on, research.
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Soli Deo Gloria
post Oct 29 2009, 03:40 PM
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There's a large theological word which is a summary of a process which would help you more with this. But I can not for the life of me remember what it's called. My apologies.
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Jarrax Volk
post Oct 31 2009, 12:36 AM
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Let's take a look at the context:

12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Evidently, some people in the church of Corinth were saying that there is no such thing as resurrection of the dead.

13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

The implications of such thoughts are that Christ was never raised.

14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

If Christ was never raised, then Christianity is false, and our faith means nothing.

15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.

If Christianity is false, then Christians are liars, because we proclaim that resurrection DOES happen, that Christ WAS raised from the dead.

16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.

If resurrection does not happen, Christ was not raised.

17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

Paul restates his argument: If Christ is not alive through Resurrection, then Christianity is false, and we are still hopeless.

18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Also, those who died as Christians went to Hell, if Christianity is false.

19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Paul says that if our hope in Christ does not matter for eternity (if it only exists to make this life more bearable), then we are the most pitiable, because we will have deluded ourselves.

20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Paul goes on to demonstrate, beginning with verse 20, that the aforementioned belief about the non-resurrection is false.

1 Cor 15:12-20 (ESV)

Based on that, and the following verses (which I won't go into because it's late here), I believe 1 Corinthians 15:29:

Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
1 Cor 15:29 (ESV)

is demonstrating the foolishness of the belief mentioned in vv. 1-20. That is: If people think their loved ones aren't going to be resurrected, or if they really will not be, then what good does baptizing them AFTER they're dead do? (I believe Paul assumes the Corinthians already know that baptizing for the dead doesn't work).

That's an admittedly hasty, and sloppy exegesis, and not the full story, I'm quite sure. If anyone has other insights, please share! I'll have to ask my professors about that one when I get back to school.
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God-Sent
post Oct 31 2009, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE
Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mention by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.1 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.2

This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead?

However, some are not convinced by this argument and state that the word "they" is not in the Greek and, therefore, Paul is not speaking about the pagans. Let's take a look.

Literally, the verse is translated as "Since what will do the being immersed on behalf of the dead if wholly dead not are raised why also are they immersed on behalf of them."

The issue here is the word, "baptizontai" -- "they are baptized." It is the present, passive, indicative, 3rd person, plural. In other words, it is THEY ARE BEING BAPTIZED or, THEY ARE BAPTIZED.

I -- first person singular
you (singular) -- second person singular
he/she/it -- third person singular
we -- first person plural
you (plural) -- second person plural
they -- third person plural

It is the latter form, the third person plural (they) in which the verb "baptizo" is found. Therefore, the best translation is "THEY are baptized."http://www.carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-baptism-dead-mentioned-1-cor-1529
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h03t
post Oct 31 2009, 01:24 PM
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God-Sent, now you got me wondering who "they" is referring to.
And the question hasn't been answered yet. sad.gif
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God-Sent
post Oct 31 2009, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (h03t @ Oct 31 2009, 02:24 PM) *
God-Sent, now you got me wondering who "they" is referring to.
And the question hasn't been answered yet. sad.gif

The pagans.

This post has been edited by God-Sent: Oct 31 2009, 01:46 PM
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Jarrax Volk
post Oct 31 2009, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE (h03t @ Oct 31 2009, 01:24 PM) *
God-Sent, now you got me wondering who "they" is referring to.
And the question hasn't been answered yet. sad.gif


"They" refers to non-Christians who practiced baptism for the dead.

"Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead?"

^^That seems to be the answer right there. Is it still confusing? Do you have other questions? What's still bothering you?
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h03t
post Nov 1 2009, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE
1 Cor 15:29 If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?


It seems like he is saying that being baptized for the dead actually does something. Sounds like he is saying it is okay and is for a cause... But we don't get baptized for the dead... There is no point, they are dead and gone, there is no reason in being baptized for them.
But here it sounds like he is saying that being baptized for the dead is actually doing something....
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Jarrax Volk
post Nov 1 2009, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (h03t @ Nov 1 2009, 01:57 PM) *
It seems like he is saying that being baptized for the dead actually does something. Sounds like he is saying it is okay and is for a cause... But we don't get baptized for the dead... There is no point, they are dead and gone, there is no reason in being baptized for them.
But here it sounds like he is saying that being baptized for the dead is actually doing something....


In that case, we look at other Scripture. One principle for determining what Scripture means is that no Scripture contradicts any other. Where there seems to be a problem, its with us, not God's Word.

In other passages, Scripture indicates that after death, one goes directly to Heaven or Hell (and no purgatorial stops in between).

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Heb 9:27-28 (ESV)

22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.
Luke 16:22-26 (ESV)

Notice, in the above passage, there is no mention of waiting, intermission, or second chances. In fact, verse 26 rules out anything like Purgatory, or saving those already in Hell.

In 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul is merely saying this: If there is no resurrection, then why do people baptize for the dead? Paul points out that even pagans know that the resurrection is real (and thus try to save the non-believing dead through the completely ineffective practice of baptism for the dead), and thus that Christians, of all people, should believe it even more readily. Nowhere in Scripture does Paul agree with or condone baptizing for the dead, or say that it has any power whatsoever to do what it claims.

GotQuestions.org has this to say:

QUOTE
Baptism for the dead is a non-biblical practice where a living person is baptized in lieu of a person that passed away, as a means of making a public profession of faith for a person that was already deceased. We can, essentially, think of it as the practice of baptizing a dead person.

The practice has as its basis the misinterpretation of Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?” This is a difficult passage to interpret, but we do know by comparing it with the rest of Scripture that it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by being baptized by someone else, because baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3-4). The entire passage (vv. 12-29) is about the surety of the resurrection, not about baptism for the dead.

What was being baptized for the dead? It is a mysterious passage, and there have been more than thirty different attempts to interpret it. 1. The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died—and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? 2. Either Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice he uses they, not "we"), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized. 3. Either way, he certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place? The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither scriptural or sensible. Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults; but it doesn't change a person's eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).
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h03t
post Nov 2 2009, 05:04 AM
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It's solid in my head now. I get what Paul was saying..
It was kinda erking me, like he was trying to make something out of baptizing for the dead. But it's clear now he isn't, he is just making a point about the resurrection of the dead.
Thx yall
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