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About lonehunter65

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    Member - Wise One

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  1. Have you read all the posts in the thread? I have discussed 1 Corinthians 7, and the use of porneo. ---------- Post added at 04:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 AM ---------- I get what your trying to say. But if there is no scripture that can show that premarital sex is wrong, then why should we treat it as if it is wrong? I just don't quite see how your points make it 'blatantly obvious' that the New Testament authors would have considered premarital sex as a part of sexual immorality. What makes it so 'obvious'? ---------- Post added at 04:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 AM ---------- I am starting to lean more towards this kind of belief. It seems to me that the real sin takes place in the hearts of people who objectify sex.
  2. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but it seems as if you are saying that a whole bunch of erroneous arguments put together somehow make a good argument. Obviously people can be sinning and not even realizing it. That's why we go to the scriptures. I can show you in scripture where it says not to murder someone. I can show you in scripture where it says to love people, to tame our tongue, and not to condemn people. As far as I can see, that cannot be done with premarital sex. Is there something I am missing here?
  3. *bump*
  4. If you would like I can go back through point by point. I just thought it would be a little boring to read, and I didn't think that any of your arguments actually directly came to a hard conclusion that premarital sex was absolutely wrong. It seemed you used those arguments to imply that premarital sex might be wrong. Any particular argument you think is a strong argument that premarital sex is absolutely wrong you would like me to address? These are the types of questions we should be asking! If the issue of sex is in fact a matter of the heart (and I honestly believe all sins are a matter of the heart) then there obviously can not be any all-encompassing indicator if a couple is ready to have sex. Each individual must decide for themselves when and if they are ready. I think your thesis that a couple must have "an immutable, lifelong, unconditional covenant of love" is a totally valid conclusion. However, others may choose differently. And I don't think we can biblically argue that they are wrong to think differently. Again "everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial". What do you think of that? This is a different topic entirely. I'm talking about relationships that are not necessarily lifelong.
  5. I'm not sure you are understanding exactly what I'm saying. The greek used in the verse can mean either woman or wife. The same word is used for both translations. No interpreter or translator can change that. It's not a matter of translation, but of context. And obviously a greek scholar could give some great insight as to the context of the verse. And forgive me if this sounds lazy, but I'm not quite sure I have the time to go through a list of 100+ names to find contact information, and then wait to see if any will actually respond.
  6. Sure, I would love to talk to some knowledgeable about the topic. You wouldn't happen to know any that would be willing to help and are responsive to email would you? And why exactly do you say there is an obvious scholarly consensus? I'm not lying, if you have any material or resources on the topic I would love to see it!
  7. Unfortunately a list of people who contributed to the translation of the ESV Bible does nothing to address the issue. If you could show me an essay or argument by a translator arguing that this particular verse should absolutely mean any women as opposed to only married women that would be different.
  8. Haha, my fault. I already had my thoughts together on how to address Jag. Here goes: The way I see it, this is a very good argument for having sex within marriage (just as I argued about the meaning of 1 Corinthians 7). Obviously there was (and may still be) a very strong connection between marriage and sex within the Jewish culture. I'm not sure this is a good argument against sex outside of marraige, however. One thing I have really been thinking about is the "line" you mentioned regarding promiscuity. If I believe premarital sex is not inherently sinful, does that really make it okay to go out and have sex with a new girl every weekend? That seems ridiculous. And to be honest, I have no idea where the line should be drawn. And I've struggled with this sort of problem with the 'line' on a number of sinful issues. Drinking, for one. When does having one more drink qualify as being sinful and motivated towards drunkenness? I think the underlying issue is this: The issue isn't the things we do, it's a matter of the heart. The motivation of our actions. Am I drinking to forget my problems and indulge in sinful behavior? Or am I drinking towards the glory of God (as Paul said to eat, or drink, or in whatever we do, to do for the glory of God. The same for sex. Is the sex motivated by an unchecked struggle of lust for a huge booty? Or is it motivated by a desire to satisfy and rejoice in a committed equally yoked relationship with someone you care for or even love? Do you really have to married to be in that type of relationship? Obviously, there was no such thing as dating in biblical times. So there was no chance that this issue was going to be addressed in scripture. Which leads me to believe that we need to make our own minds up on this issue. As Paul said "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial". Prayer and the witness of the Holy Spirit seem to be our only guide on this matter. I have thought about this entire topic pretty extensively over the last four or five months, and that is basically what I've come up with. I would love to hear anyone's feedback on my thoughts.
  9. Does it? If you can show me biblically where fornication falls under sexual immorality, I would be in agreement with you. Let's take a look at the first one scripture you mentioned: Matthew 5:28 - But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. A year ago I would have completely agreed with you, this completely condemns fornication. But if you look at the actual greek behind the word "woman" you'll see a problem. The Greek gynaika is interchangeable with the English wife or woman. So basically, it has two meanings. If you consider the context of this verse, I think it makes more sense to use 'wife'. If adultery means to violate the sanctity of marriage, it makes more sense that looking at someone in a marriage relationship would be adultery. Note that it uses 'adultery' as opposed to 'sexual immorality' (which you say would include premarital sex). I already posted some comments on the Corinthians 7 passage in my original post, and I would love to hear your comments on that as well. Please don't assume that. I'm very tempted to defend myself, but it would be pointless. Have you read any of my posts?
  10. I think the reaction people are having to this song is proof that the language was necessary. Nowhere in the bible does it say not to say the word *****, ******, or hoe, and people need to be reminded of that. It says to guard our tongues and be uplifting with our speech. I think that is exactly what Sho did in giving this inspirational and biblical message.
  11. I'm loving this song and the statement it is making.
  12. Hey, sorry guys haven't been on the forum in a while. Just read through the responses and found them helpful. I know I said this before, but I do plan on respnding to Slave and -L-. Wesker, if you are still up for it, I'd love to hear an argument from the opposing viewpoint. For now, I have to head to lab, hopefully I will have time tomorrow.
  13. I disagree with this picture. True muslims would never condone violence towards others to attain their goals. Small groups of radicals should not be taken has the whole. Radicals such as this are present in every large group.
  14. This scripture may be relevant: 1 Corinthians 7:2 (read in context for full understanding) Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Notice the singularity. Culturally, this is obviously immoral. A little more complicated scripturally. I think the overall attitude towards marriage, in addition to this scripture, is enough to show the intention of marriage is not polygamy.
  15. This is a great example of a response that I am not looking for. 1.Where does God 'clearly state' that he made sex for marriage? 2. Please validate your opinion with scripture. 3. Don't accuse me of twisting the word of God when you have yet to provide any actual word of God.