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I have yet to find theologian or "famous Christian" who's not dead, in many cases long dead, that I respect or even can take seriously that doesn't believe women should be able to be able to be pastors. Or at least any that devote any time to propagating that view. The only complementarian theologians I respect or take seriously are the ones who spent no or very little time writing theology of that view. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of well-meaning complementarian pastors who believe they're doing the right thing. I just think they're being taken advantage of by the wolves in sheep's clothing leaders of complementarianism. Even theologians who are a bit too conservative for me, but I still think have some good things to say and I can mostly respect, as they haven't been involved in scandals, abuse cover ups, or paling with people who have views that 99% of conservative evangelicals would consider extreme, are all egalitarians who believe women should be able to serve in any ministry position, including pastor. There are so many skeletons in the complementarian camp. It isn't even funny. There is deep, deep corruption among complementarian leaders the vast majority of complementarian leaders. It's a whole spiderweb of interconnected people (well, men) who are unwilling to call out bad behavior and extremism in their own camp. If anyone is interested in this I would love give you resources. Most leaders of the complementarian can with simple investigation can be proven to be wolves in sheep's clothing, and that's the honest to goodness truth if anyone's willing to listen. Well, those Christians who operated the underground railroad were "explicitly contradicting the Bible". After all "Slaves obey your masters" is pretty straightforward, and running away isn't obedience. Even Paul returned a runaway slave to his master. My point is not that not allowing women to be pastors is even remotely as awful as slavery, but that flat readings of the Bible don't get us anywhere.

This is something I found unsettling, overwhelming, and even depressing when I was young too. I always found it mind-boggling how God could have always existed and never had a beginning. It's not that I didn't believe I just found and still find it hard to wrap my mind around. But I think part of the problem with difficultly understanding there never being an ending to eternal life is the way we talk about. Like the term "eternity", though technically true, I find unsettling because of often incorrect ideas that go along with it. "Eternal life" seems to bring a more accurate picture. There will be seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, seasons, years, decades, centuries, millenniums, etc. on the New Earth ("Heaven") it's just they will never end. I find it's easier to think of it as measurements of time, for example years, that will never end as opposed to a huge, unspecified block of endless time. I've found there were a lot of incorrect ideas I was taught both explicitly and implicitly about "Heaven" or as I'd now specify the Intermediate Heaven and New Earth. A really great book on the subject I'd suggest to anyone who's struggled with this, wondered about this, or really any Christian of any stripe is Heaven by Randy Alcorn. I hope you find this encouraging, Echo12!

Thank you, Jazzy! Would it be alright if I sometimes emailed you (I got your email from your profile)?

The last month and a half has been very important in my faith walk. Over these last almost two years God has really expanded my heart to truly have a love for humanity in a way that I could never have dreamed of before. Sadly because of others wrong beliefs I was taught, and my own sinful nature I didn't know what it was like to truly love. The love I got always from people in the past always felt very conditional. But God intervened nearly two years ago. None of it is a result of me, but all is because of Him. It's pretty amazing what He has done. It can be painful when God works on and refines your heart and mind, but the end result is so good that's it's worth it. I've also had to think over my life and remember things that I'd forgotten or pushed out of my mind. I'm still working through it, but God is in the process healing me of pain from when I was young and younger. Amazingly, I've felt a profound sense of forgiveness and love for people who've caused me to suffer lots of pain, even if the pain is still there. Which I know I could never have done that on my own. There's a lot more I could say, but basically I probably won't be on CTF much in the future. I'm not saying I'll never post anything again. But I can tell you I won't be getting in anymore CTF debates. I'll be on CTF little, if at all. God has used CTF to teach me many spiritual and practical things. Which has often involved me acting in a less than Christ-like way. In someways I wish I could go back with who I am today and be a better, though not perfect, person, but I don't really because God has used my experience on CTF to sanctify me and transform me into the person he wants me to be. My new goal is to try to only say and do things that will build others up, not tear them down, and to live a life that is filled with the Fruit of the Spirit. But the place that CTF played for about four years in my social, intellectual, and spiritual life has now ended. I've met a lot of amazing people who've challenged me, helped me understand others, and showed me kindness. It has taught me so much. It helped me learn a lot of book knowledge I needed to know, but there are other sorts of knowledge I know God wants to teach me. I'm also at the point in my life where I'm tired and worn out of debating, and researching all sorts of things. I've done tons of that, and excessive amounts in the last year (it was like my job, and more consuming than college), but now I feel like I've researched everything that's important to me or interesting and I need more real life experiences. But CTF has given me lots more confidence with stating my views in certain circumstances (in others I'm still chicken). And I need "real life" friends, which I am trusting God will bring the right ones into my life. I have casual friends, but no real life close or best friends currently. But CTF was significant and at times primary for my social life from when I was 15 and two months to 19 and four months (or if you count until right now 19 and a half/six months). I will always cherish those memories! I've gotten to the point where I want to tell people about how much Jesus loves them and has done for them, share God's love with people in smaller ways (like doing something little to brighten their day), and changing the world for better, and fighting against injustice. I just felt like I needed to tell you guys that after having been in my life for so long, though lots of people currently on CTF are pretty new and lots of people who were on CTF during my formative time on here are no longer regulars or on at all. Just if you'll pray that I'll have direction with where God is leading me I'd really appreciate it!

It is in the New Testament. 1 Corinthians 5:1 "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." Even if incest wasn't addressed in the New Testament I still think it would be very easy to make a case for sinfulness regardless of Levitical laws. Some degrees of incest seemed to be allowed when there were less people, but parent-child incest has always been wrong on account of role confusion. Polygamy isn't directly condemned in the New Testament, though it is certainly viewed as less than ideal, but we can still conclude it's sinful based on the bad fruit (higher levels of violence, crime, poverty, child abuse, neglect, and homicide (much of it probably perpetrated by women), intra-sexual competition and violence, increased heart attack rates for men with plural wives) it bears in societies, families, and individuals, both from an empirical and anecdotal point of view. http://news.ubc.ca/2012/01/23/monogamy-reduces-major-social-problems-of-polygamist-cultures/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11570638/Polygamy-increases-the-risk-of-heart-disease-study-finds.html The most important question that Christians should ask for any behavior, not just sexual behavior, that involves other people is whether that behavior fulfills the law of loving, with God's agape love, your neighbor as yourself.This is something that God has really shown me. For so much of my life I've fallen very, very short of this, but God has and is transforming me to be more and more like Jesus. Sometimes what is the truly loving (aka right) action is not clear at first, but intentionally looking at the fruit that something bears should give an idea of its morality. Since God's laws are laws that will always promote human flourishing, and lead to life. And prohibitions are there to protect people from behavior that flows out of a lack of love. If something, spiritually or both spiritually and physically, leads to stealing, killing, and destroying than it's not of God. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad fruit tree cannot bear good fruit. Does something promote love, joy, peace, patience/forbearance/perseverance, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentlessness, and self-control? Or does it promote hate/animosity/contempt/malice/resentment/bitterness, despair/misery, aggression/antagonism/hostility/turmoil/belligerence, anger/impatience/agitation/irresolution/giving up, evilness/immorality/unwholesomeness/corruption, unkindness/cruelness/unsympathetic behavior, faithlessness/unfaithfulness/disloyalty/wavering-ness/fickleness, harshness/hardhearted-ness/heartlessness, rashness/instability/indiscretion/giving excessive vent to emotions/lack of willpower? I've started to try to ask myself before I say thing and do things, and with what theological beliefs I believe are true and what Christians I look up if its/their fruit looks more like the Fruit of the Spirit or the antonyms of the Fruit of the Spirit, but I certainly still fall short a lot. It's something that's been on my heart to share with others. But I'm not interested in getting on a debate in this if people don't find it whatever enough. I hope this can be encouragement to someone to build up their faith.

I actually agree with you on this. At least as far as hormones and sex change operations are concerned. It's way too big of a decision to make before around 16. Here's a transgender girl, who makes awesome videos showing the ridiculousness of SJW-ish, talking on this.

No, to the first question. Yes, to the second question. No, to the third question. There is absolutely no way I would be romantically interested in a trans person without a sex change operation. And even with a sex change operation I don't think so. There are enough pansexual and maybe bisexual for trans people to find that kind of love with. Transgender youth who's parents reject their gender identity are 13 times more likely to attempt suicide than transgender youth who's parents accept them. And trans people with a strong support system 82% less likely to attempt suicide. It's similar to how LGB teens from unaccepting families are 8 times more likely to attempt suicide than teens very accepting families. Or studies from the late 1980's-early 2000's found, that when everything relevant like personal socioeconomic factors, community socioeconomic factors, average age of the area, racial demographics of the area, and religiosity of the area were controlled for, LGB people living in areas where the surrounding population was least accepting of homosexuality died 12 years earlier than in areas where the general population was most accepting of homosexuality. In the most accepting areas 92% of the LGB people were still alive 20 years after the study started, while only 78% of the LGB people still alive in the least accepting areas. Which thankfully at least as far as LGB are concerned in the US this is increasingly a thing of the past. Here's a study that found on a 26-item scale that trans people who experience more discrimination are more likely to attempt suicide. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08964289.2015.1028322?journalCode=vbmd20 I'm not interested in getting in a debate, but anyone talking about this issue has to really take seriously the issue of 41% of transgendered have attempted suicide. And it's very strongly associated with discrimination and rejection, particularly by family. Many gay, and to lesser extent bisexual, people have been put through enough emotional and physiological abuse (some of it unintentional, and most of it from good intentions), and I'm sure it's way worse and more common for transgender people. And also FtM trans people have parts of their brain that are similar genetic men, and MtF have parts of their brain that are similar to genetic women. Though transgender people have brains in between genetic men and genetic women. That's a fact. Trans people's brains, and bodies don't match up. And yes, there is such a thing as a male and a female brain I'm very supportive of trans people, but I don't buy the whole non-binary gender thing. Yes, there are I'm sure people who don't 100% feel like either gender, but it's an exception, and doesn't mean that vast majority of people don't feel like one gender or the other. http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/ I despise the Oppression Olympics that SJWs play, but in 2016 America transgender would be at the top in my opinion when it comes to who has it the on average the worse. Or at least who you're allowed to treat with the most contempt. Basically I care. I don't want to see more transgender people commit suicide or be murdered because of prejudice. I saw a really insulting and sexist Intersectional, Third Wave Feminist article that said "Masculinity is Killing Trans Women". Masculinity isn't killing trans women (or men), but bad ideas are. I probably shouldn't have said anything because I'm trying to hardly use the Internet at all, and don't want to get into a debate/long discussion or conversation. But I just felt guilty not saying anything. I wish people would try to get to know (even if not in real life because I don't as far as I know know any trans people IRL) and understand transgender people before saying they're mentally ill. Has anyone who says trans people are mentally ill even had casual friendship with one?

So long, farewell! It's sad to see you too go. I loved that time we had a couple page long conversation about Disney in the Forum Games section. Best wishes with life!

So long, farewell! It's so sad to see you go. You always had interesting and nuanced things to say on subjects. You are in the top two people who I found their CTF your posts most interesting to read. Best wishes for life!

Makes me think of Teal Deer. I just have to share this video.

That verse, even interpreted the broadest way, is only about male same-sex acts, and prior to the Middle Ages has never been seen as having anything to do with female same-sex acts by anyone. Certainly it wasn't seen that way in ancient times. So that verse could only be said to preach hate against gay or bisexual men. But honestly by that reasoning could be said that the Bible preaches hate against most heterosexuals. Or at least against the sex that most heterosexuals engage in probably a 1/4 of the time. "If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them must be cut off from the community, for together they have exposed the source of her blood flow." Leviticus 20:18 "He does not feast in the mountains before Israel's idols or worship them. He does not commit adultery or have intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period." Ezekiel 18:6 Those verses are in the Bible, and should be relevant to anyone who claims to take the Bible literally. And the first verse is in Holiness Code along with verses condemning child sacrifice, bestiality, adultery, incest, and male same-sex acts. And up until the 1700 and 1800's all Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) universally believed that that prohibition still applied to Christians. Clement of Alexandria, St Augustine, St. Jerome, John Chrysostom (who was about the only Early Church Father to view any sex positively), Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, and John Wesley all wrote that sex during mensuration was a sin (though they varied with how seriously they viewed it). As did Matthew Poole's Commentary (nonconformist Protestant), Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible (Baptist), Benson Commentary (Methodist), Pulpit Commentary (Anglican), and Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (Anglican). I can't find any surviving writing prior to 1774 of any Christian leader/writer/denomination even considering the idea that it might not be a sin. Also prior either 1857 or 1858 the universal Christian believed that using primitive NFP/rhyme/charting was sinful, but then the Roman Catholic Church started to allow it in cases of grave maternal health. Though St. Augustine, one of the most significant figures of Sacred Tradition, had very clearly condemned primitive NFP. And of course of every church and all Christian leaders prior to 1930 condemned any usage of contraception and non-procreative heterosexual acts as grave sins. Those are the historical facts. I'm not interested in getting in a debate on sexuality, consistency on sexuality, how to interpret the Bible, or anything else. But modern conservative Christians would do well to seriously acknowledge that sex with a menstruating woman is talked about alongside what are considered serious sins, like adultery and idolatry.

Yes, some of it. The portion they have at night on Prime Time on NBC. Which is literally the only time I watch cable TV (any other TV I watch is on DVD). I haven't had a chance as I've been busy. I wish I could have seen the Opening Ceremony, but maybe they have bits of it on YouTube. I missed the Opening Ceremony to the 2014 Sochi Olympics. So I guess I've evenly missed Opening Ceremonies. I'm not interested in sports, but it just seems like something you do since you only get the chance every two/four years.

Very interesting post Katy! I agree this is an important difference. I agree with you about the US getting involved in nation building in the Middle East, North Africa, and Afghanistan. Libya is a very sad example. But that is just over decades, not centuries. I don't know what the mean by "the West". For centuries many millions of Eastern Europeans, in particular Slavs, were kidnapped by the Tartars and Barbary Pirates, and sold into the Ottoman Turkish and Arabian slave trades. Also the Ottoman Turks conquered and ruled over all of Southeast Europe, Hungary, and parts of Romania, Ukraine, and Russia. There are Slavic folk songs still song about the cruel treatment by the Ottoman Turks. Eastern Europeans have absolutely no reason to open doors to the people who enslaved, oppressed, beaten, raped, and killed millions of them for centuries. So yeah, as an Eastern European person I don't have reason to personally "feel bad" anything relating to the Middle East. But as an American I do feel bad about how America has gotten involved. Even for Western Europe it hasn't been one sided. There were The Crusades. But about a million Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, French, and British were kidnapped by the Barbary Pirates and sold into the Arab North African, Ottoman Turkish, or Arabian slavery. For Eastern Europeans the oppression by Tartars, Middle Easterners, and North Africans was pretty one-sided. Even today human trafficking of Eastern Europeans to the Middle East remains a thing. Interesting fact, our English word slave comes from the word Slav. I don't think many people are interested in Muslim immigrants accepting Western values as much as modern values. The Western values of the Middle Ages weren't so different from the Islamic values of today. But Europe doesn't burn people at the stake for heresy anymore. And the Islamic Middle East shouldn't anymore stone people for apostasy anymore (not that I'm in any way encouraging nation building or getting involved in countries affairs). It seems like there's an issue of the soft bigotry of low expectations for Middle Eastern Muslims in Europe. But I agree with you if you're talking about American involvement in the Middle East over the last 70 years or so. I only thought "Muslim ghettos" in London, but not the rest of England. In my Geography class my teacher showed a video that wasn't "Muslim ghetto ghetto", but "sort of ghettoish Muslim area". She had a positive view of Muslims. Americans for whatever reason tend to think "Muslim ghettos" are a thing in London. She just showed the video because she wanted to shatter the stereotype of British people being old ladies, in hats drinking tea (her words).