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mad max

CTF Official Christian Music Debate

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hi everyone

i just wanted to ask in your opinion what do you think secular or satanic music is and do you think us christians should only listen to christian music .

just curious to Know ;)[/b]

What is satanic music? Like, music promoting satanism?

Anyways, I prefer secular music to christian. Allthough I like bands like P.O.D and Five Iron Frenzy

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do you wear clothes dkkev? clothes are of the world. The world wears them, and they wear them in different styles. Frankly, if you aren walking around naked as Adam and Eve did then, by your logic, you are of the world.

*turns on Justin Timberlake and KanYe West and Coldplay and Remy Zero and Weird Al etc... AT THE SAME TIME*

D:[/b]

Ahh... God's commanded us all to wear clothes. But you are correct, there are different styles. Some of which are sinful, some of which are not. I do not follow the world's style of clothing which today is turning quickly to blackness, literally. At the beach... well you get my point. Something interesting I heard once that a preacher said (Paul Washer). A poll was taken among people in america who call themselves Christians (from the poll they obviously weren't all Christians). But anyways, the poll came out and what the average so called Christian could wear to the beach without any feelings of guilt and think to be perfectly acceptable.... If they had worn that same thing out in public 60 years ago they would've been thrown in jail or an insane asylum by the secular authorities. The point? WE DON'T KNOW HOW FAR WE HAVE FALLEN! Just think, if after 60 years we become that less worried about sin, just think how war we have fallen in 6000 years. People are to busy comparing themselves to others to see if they're a 'good christian'. The bible says, though, to test yourself in light of scripture. Don't test yourself to see if your a Christian by comparing your self to other church people, compare yourself to the word of God. I find that a great book to read to do this is 1 John. The whole book is practically a series of passages that describe to you what a Christian really is.

First off, non-christians can make music that is not sinful, and not all people necessarily live in very sinful lifestyles, besides by them choosing to not be christians (in fact, lots of nonchristians probably sin less than christians, does that mean we shouldnt listen to those christian's music, even if it portrays God in a positive life?)

I mean, music is music, and sometimes artists who are not christian just write lyrics to express themselves, and their expressions are not sinful. By not listening to them, its basically the same as not listening to nonchristian's expressions outside of music, which if we wouldnt do we would often (though not always) be ignorant (not saying if you dont listen to secular music you are ignorant, only comparing.) And yes, I would understand if you would say that by listening to nonchristian's music would constantly let their ideas may seep into your life, but again, is it really sinful, or just neutral? There are plenty of "neutral" songs written by christian artists, and since they don't glorify God, should we skip over them? Or is it okay to listen to because its from the mouth of a believer and not a nonbeliever?

And no, I'm not trying to attack anyone, just simply stating opinions, so don't take any offence to my post.[/b]

The bolded part above seemed to be the main point of your argument.

Let's just start out by saying your argument is false. Everything a nonbeliever does is a sin. EVERYTHING. If an unbeliever gives money to help the starving children in Africa, it's a sin. If an unbeliever stops to help out a man who popped a tire, it's a sin. Everything an unbeliever does is sin. Now I knw you're probably thinking about what angry reply you can send me as you read this about how an act of kindness isn't sin... Let's examine this a bit closer. An unbeliever does NOT believe in the one true God and that Christ is the Son of God, etc, etc. Therefore their entire basis for their life is wrong. What did Jesus say the greatest command is? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Ok, so if you don't believe Christ to be the Son of God then you can't love God because you believe he's a liar. You can't believe in God but not love him, it's not possible. So if you don't believe in God you do not love him. Everything you do if you do not believe in God is a sin because you are not doing it for God, but for your own glory, or maybe even another person's glory, but not God's. If you don't love God then you can't glorify him in all that you do. Therefore if an unbeliever gives money to the starving children in Africa it is a sin because he does not believe in God. If a Christian does it, a true Christian, so that they may glorify God in serving in him, etc, etc, in his name. Then it is not a sin.

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@ Dkkev:

Originally posted by CTF Rules

11.b. There will be no discrimination of different forms or doctrines of Christianity. We may not agree on everything, but we should be building one another up rather than tearing each other down.

Also:

Let's just start out by saying your argument is false. Everything a nonbeliever does is a sin. EVERYTHING. If an unbeliever gives money to help the starving children in Africa, it's a sin. If an unbeliever stops to help out a man who popped a tire, it's a sin. Everything an unbeliever does is sin. Now I knw you're probably thinking about what angry reply you can send me as you read this about how an act of kindness isn't sin... Let's examine this a bit closer. An unbeliever does NOT believe in the one true God and that Christ is the Son of God, etc, etc. Therefore their entire basis for their life is wrong. What did Jesus say the greatest command is? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Ok, so if you don't believe Christ to be the Son of God then you can't love God because you believe he's a liar. You can't believe in God but not love him, it's not possible. So if you don't believe in God you do not love him. Everything you do if you do not believe in God is a sin because you are not doing it for God, but for your own glory, or maybe even another person's glory, but not God's. If you don't love God then you can't glorify him in all that you do. Therefore if an unbeliever gives money to the starving children in Africa it is a sin because he does not believe in God. If a Christian does it, a true Christian, so that they may glorify God in serving in him, etc, etc, in his name. Then it is not a sin.[/b]

Please keep in mind that this entire paragraph is opinion, which is okay to have. I would even call it an admirable trait to have one's own opinion. Regardless, though, it is still opinion - for the sake of honesty, at least, let us be clear on that point.

...

That's all. Carry on. ;)

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Ahh... God's commanded us all to wear clothes. But you are correct, there are different styles. Some of which are sinful, some of which are not. I do not follow the world's style of clothing which today is turning quickly to blackness, literally. At the beach... well you get my point. Something interesting I heard once that a preacher said (Paul Washer). A poll was taken among people in america who call themselves Christians (from the poll they obviously weren't all Christians). But anyways, the poll came out and what the average so called Christian could wear to the beach without any feelings of guilt and think to be perfectly acceptable.... If they had worn that same thing out in public 60 years ago they would've been thrown in jail or an insane asylum by the secular authorities. The point? WE DON'T KNOW HOW FAR WE HAVE FALLEN! Just think, if after 60 years we become that less worried about sin, just think how war we have fallen in 6000 years. People are to busy comparing themselves to others to see if they're a 'good christian'. The bible says, though, to test yourself in light of scripture. Don't test yourself to see if your a Christian by comparing your self to other church people, compare yourself to the word of God. I find that a great book to read to do this is 1 John. The whole book is practically a series of passages that describe to you what a Christian really is.

The bolded part above seemed to be the main point of your argument.

Let's just start out by saying your argument is false. Everything a nonbeliever does is a sin. EVERYTHING. If an unbeliever gives money to help the starving children in Africa, it's a sin. If an unbeliever stops to help out a man who popped a tire, it's a sin. Everything an unbeliever does is sin. Now I knw you're probably thinking about what angry reply you can send me as you read this about how an act of kindness isn't sin... Let's examine this a bit closer. An unbeliever does NOT believe in the one true God and that Christ is the Son of God, etc, etc. Therefore their entire basis for their life is wrong. What did Jesus say the greatest command is? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Ok, so if you don't believe Christ to be the Son of God then you can't love God because you believe he's a liar. You can't believe in God but not love him, it's not possible. So if you don't believe in God you do not love him. Everything you do if you do not believe in God is a sin because you are not doing it for God, but for your own glory, or maybe even another person's glory, but not God's. If you don't love God then you can't glorify him in all that you do. Therefore if an unbeliever gives money to the starving children in Africa it is a sin because he does not believe in God. If a Christian does it, a true Christian, so that they may glorify God in serving in him, etc, etc, in his name. Then it is not a sin.[/b]

please do not take this as an offense but instead a challenge dkkev

I have debated with many who have a very similar viewpoint to yours and I have come to learn something( I am guessing you are an independant fundamental baptist or at least follow a solo scripture style). you seem to try and seperate yourselves from the world. But instead you anchor yourselves in the world of yesterday. like you said in your post you mention 60 years ago and seem to glorify it greater than today(this may be true in many cases). but then you are not basing these ideas on scripture but on a culture which was sinful and corrupt even if you think it isn't as bad as the current one. note that not once you have not used a scripture in your post.

also to debate with one of the finer points

Everything a unbeliever does is sin?

you could make the arguement that a non believer cannot please god biblically

maybe you could (at a push) prove that everything a non believer does nothing good.

but I can't see anything that can show that everything a unbeleiving man does is sinfull

are you sure you are not getting mixed up with total depravity

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Let's just start out by saying your argument is false. Everything a nonbeliever does is a sin. EVERYTHING. If an unbeliever gives money to help the starving children in Africa, it's a sin. If an unbeliever stops to help out a man who popped a tire, it's a sin. Everything an unbeliever does is sin. Now I knw you're probably thinking about what angry reply you can send me as you read this about how an act of kindness isn't sin... Let's examine this a bit closer. An unbeliever does NOT believe in the one true God and that Christ is the Son of God, etc, etc. Therefore their entire basis for their life is wrong. What did Jesus say the greatest command is? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Ok, so if you don't believe Christ to be the Son of God then you can't love God because you believe he's a liar. You can't believe in God but not love him, it's not possible. So if you don't believe in God you do not love him. Everything you do if you do not believe in God is a sin because you are not doing it for God, but for your own glory, or maybe even another person's glory, but not God's. If you don't love God then you can't glorify him in all that you do. Therefore if an unbeliever gives money to the starving children in Africa it is a sin because he does not believe in God. If a Christian does it, a true Christian, so that they may glorify God in serving in him, etc, etc, in his name. Then it is not a sin.[/b]

Christians don't. Anyways, I think this interpretation sucks, no offense.

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Let's just start out by saying your argument is false. Everything a nonbeliever does is a sin. EVERYTHING. If an unbeliever gives money to help the starving children in Africa, it's a sin. If an unbeliever stops to help out a man who popped a tire, it's a sin. Everything an unbeliever does is sin. Now I knw you're probably thinking about what angry reply you can send me as you read this about how an act of kindness isn't sin... Let's examine this a bit closer. An unbeliever does NOT believe in the one true God and that Christ is the Son of God, etc, etc. Therefore their entire basis for their life is wrong. What did Jesus say the greatest command is? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Ok, so if you don't believe Christ to be the Son of God then you can't love God because you believe he's a liar. You can't believe in God but not love him, it's not possible. So if you don't believe in God you do not love him. Everything you do if you do not believe in God is a sin because you are not doing it for God, but for your own glory, or maybe even another person's glory, but not God's. If you don't love God then you can't glorify him in all that you do. Therefore if an unbeliever gives money to the starving children in Africa it is a sin because he does not believe in God. If a Christian does it, a true Christian, so that they may glorify God in serving in him, etc, etc, in his name. Then it is not a sin.[/b]

Before I begin, I will state yet another opinion: That no act a man commits is unselfish in some way, shape, or form. Everything we do is helping us or making us happier or better in some way, sometimes everything we don't do either.

When posting, I did say that committed less sins besides the fact that they are not christians, and even christians don't do everything in God. I'm not going to get too heavy on this subject, however, because this topic is about music, but again, simply stating opinions.

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please do not take this as an offense but instead a challenge dkkev

I have debated with many who have a very similar viewpoint to yours and I have come to learn something( I am guessing you are an independant fundamental baptist or at least follow a solo scripture style). you seem to try and seperate yourselves from the world. But instead you anchor yourselves in the world of yesterday. like you said in your post you mention 60 years ago and seem to glorify it greater than today(this may be true in many cases). but then you are not basing these ideas on scripture but on a culture which was sinful and corrupt even if you think it isn't as bad as the current one. note that not once you have not used a scripture in your post.

The whole beach thing when I was listening to it was used to show how much our culture is changing for the worse. The whole 60 years thing showed that. You are correct that it is not based off of scripture, but I don't think it was needed particularly for that example. I mean, I guess I could say that 2000 years ago if you were a Jew and wore that out in public you would be stoned. As for glorifying that time period to be better than this one, yes, I would say that example does just that, and it's probably true in most cases, however I can't really back that up with anything >_>

also to debate with one of the finer points

Everything a unbeliever does is sin?

you could make the arguement that a non believer cannot please god biblically

maybe you could (at a push) prove that everything a non believer does nothing good.

but I can't see anything that can show that everything a unbeleiving man does is sinfull

are you sure you are not getting mixed up with total depravity[/b]

Total depravity? What 's that? :P

Your right though, I haven't been backing this up with much scripture...

Matthew 7

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Hmmmm... A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Just like you cannot pick a grape off a fig tree, you can't be a bad tree and produce good fruit. Like wise a Good tree cannot bear bad fruit. Now yes, it is true that a believe does sin, but once saved, he is always saved, enslaved by God. God can 'overlook' in a sense a believers bad fruit because the believer has repented and believed in Christ.

"you could make the arguement that a non believer cannot please god biblically

maybe you could (at a push) prove that everything a non believer does nothing good. "

Not quite sure what you mean by the first statement.

Saying a non believer does nothing good is like saying a nonbeliever does everything bad. Bad would mean sin ;)

As for being an independent fundamentalist baptist or a solo scripture style... I haven't really heard of either. I would guess the second one would mean that someone only reads the Bible and doesn't really apply any other knowledge except for it...Your probably looking for some denomination I belong to, but I don't really consider myself part of any denomination. Why? There's really only one denomination, it's called Christian. Jesus in fact prayed a prayer (can remember the exact passage) that all Christians would be one. I'm pretty sure there's several places where the bible says that God's people are not divided, etc, etc.

Christians don't. Anyways, I think this interpretation sucks, no offense.[/b]

I don't have any problem with the fact that you don't like my interpretation... it was expected...

But really at lest tell me why it sucks, or where I messed up my interpretation ;)

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do you wear clothes dkkev? clothes are of the world. The world wears them, and they wear them in different styles. Frankly, if you aren walking around naked as Adam and Eve did then, by your logic, you are of the world.[/b]

Well, I hear what your saying, but may I point something out? God made the first pair of clothing, for Adam and Eve. So when we wear clothing, we mimic the "trend" God started. many have perverted the styles of clothing however, good or bad, different or not.

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One thing I need to say (okay a few things). Black clothing is not bad. It is not evil. Black is a color (I dont care if you think its the absense of color, thats stupid. Look in a box of crayons. When you whip out black, do you see written on it "Absense of color, can not be named." No, its black. I like black shirts mainly (honestly) because it hides my acne and other facial scars. Its weird but true. The red blend more with black near my face, in comparison to light colors. Beyond this I also enjoy band t-shirts, many of which are metal or heavier music to say the least; so black tends to be the color. However, black isn't making anyone evil here.

And that whole "everything a non-Christian does is a sin" thing is just hilarious. I might say I was slightly offended (than only to return to my mind and tell myself, "Chris; this is the internet." Its okay to have opinions, however as a Christian I would think you would have used the Bible a little more to craft them. Show me where it says something like that? I mean, I see you used some verses so I'll give you that; but I don't think they relate to every little thing. It seems kind of ignorant to believe that everything a non-Christian does is sinful (while "sin" doesn't bother me, the idea of what sin is does). See, sin is related to bad. Therefore in your "idea" you are viritually saying it is wrong for non-Christians to give to charities (one thing I like doing), help people, etc. I will go so far as to say its self-righteous honestly.

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Well, I hear what your saying, but may I point something out? God made the first pair of clothing, for Adam and Eve. So when we wear clothing, we mimic the "trend" God started. many have perverted the styles of clothing however, good or bad, different or not.[/b]

You're making it sound like God didn't start music.

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One thing I need to say (okay a few things). Black clothing is not bad. It is not evil. Black is a color (I dont care if you think its the absense of color, thats stupid. Look in a box of crayons. When you whip out black, do you see written on it "Absense of color, can not be named." No, its black. I like black shirts mainly (honestly) because it hides my acne and other facial scars. Its weird but true. The red blend more with black near my face, in comparison to light colors. Beyond this I also enjoy band t-shirts, many of which are metal or heavier music to say the least; so black tends to be the color. However, black isn't making anyone evil here.

And that whole "everything a non-Christian does is a sin" thing is just hilarious. I might say I was slightly offended (than only to return to my mind and tell myself, "Chris; this is the internet." Its okay to have opinions, however as a Christian I would think you would have used the Bible a little more to craft them. Show me where it says something like that? I mean, I see you used some verses so I'll give you that; but I don't think they relate to every little thing. It seems kind of ignorant to believe that everything a non-Christian does is sinful (while "sin" doesn't bother me, the idea of what sin is does). See, sin is related to bad. Therefore in your "idea" you are viritually saying it is wrong for non-Christians to give to charities (one thing I like doing), help people, etc. I will go so far as to say its self-righteous honestly.[/b]

I don't see you backing up anything you're saying with scripture, whereas I have.

Yes, in my idea I am saying it is wrong for a non-Christian to give to a charity. It's wrong for a non-Christian to do anything. I have backed this up with scripture in my above post. To be honest I don't really care what your opinion is, I care what your translation of the scripture is. That way we can find where both of us may have misinterpreted the text. It isn't about what we think, it matters what God says, what his word says, and what is right. I don't think it's a good idea to rely on our opinions as we were all born as fallen beings.

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Does no one read anything I post on this forum? People shouldn't be that out of the loop that I am NOT a Christian, therefore I do not need to back my opinions with the bible. However, I say a Christian should back their views with the bible more if they are truly a Christian. It just makes sense. Anyways all that is ultimately is condemnation of each individual who doesn't believe how you believe. Honestly, I am self-proclaiming that I am aware that I am going to Hell when I die; and thats okay. However, besides this calling it "wrong" for non-Christians to do anything is ultimately just negative. You may as well get all the Christians together and lynch all the non-Christians, which in reality is truly what your saying. There is no redemption for anyone outside of your religion, because as I see in your view there is no opportunity for it. If all I do is negative, than nothing can be positive without being a Christian. However, from what I see of your view; it is also a negative, making all things negative. Being a Christian isn't stopping anyone from sinning, so can you honestly say that what you do is good; in light of sinfullness, just because your a "Christian'? I use that term in quotes because I think its very loosely used here. I mean, Christian or non-Christian we're all capable of doing good things. Even churches and what not preach that much. "The world does good, but living a good life will not get you to heaven." I hear that from preachers all the time. Now its cliche and I'm surprised you haven't heard it.

Though, since I am not a Christian my opinion does not matter (as you've already stated). So inadvertantly your view in this debate is wholy biased towards your own opinions fully crafted out of a handful of scripture verses, particularly those that rely on imagery and that obviously have to do with false prophets (which is not every non-Christian). It even says that right at the beginning.

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Total depravity? What 's that? :P[/b]

total depravity is the doctrine that there is no part of man untouched by sin. this does not however mean that man is as bad as he possibly can be.

Your right though, I haven't been backing this up with much scripture...

Matthew 7

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Hmmmm... A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Just like you cannot pick a grape off a fig tree, you can't be a bad tree and produce good fruit. Like wise a Good tree cannot bear bad fruit. Now yes, it is true that a believe does sin, but once saved, he is always saved, enslaved by God. God can 'overlook' in a sense a believers bad fruit because the believer has repented and believed in Christ.[/b]

do you see fruits as actions?

I see the fruits as being more the result of our actions. I agree that a sinners work will always result in sin but not their every action as being a sin in itself. we could say that they are constantly sinning on the idea of constant unrepetance. but I don't think it would be possible (without other scriptures that more explicitly state the idea) to say that the fruit is our actions and thus anything an non believer does is sinful.

also as the chris has pointed out in his post this parable is talking about people who call themselves christians and false prophets. As it is a parable we have to be carefull when taing any extra teaching from it that isn't part of the original purpose (without other supporting scriptures)

"you could make the arguement that a non believer cannot please god biblically

maybe you could (at a push) prove that everything a non believer does nothing good. "

Not quite sure what you mean by the first statement.

Saying a non believer does nothing good is like saying a nonbeliever does everything bad. Bad would mean sin ;)[/b]

sorry the first statement should read

you could make the arguement "everything a non believer does cannot please god" biblically

It depends from which viewpoint you are taking good to be. you are taking bad and good to be white and black with no grey in between and so therefore your logic stands. This is quite possibly be how god (in infinate wisdom and knowledge) views good and bad but I think for us humans (incredibally limited and confined in our wisdom and knowledge) can not view these things in such a way for it would often lead to ignorance and often thinking one thing is on one side when infact if we held the full picture we would see quite the oppisite.

As for being an independent fundamentalist baptist or a solo scripture style... I haven't really heard of either. I would guess the second one would mean that someone only reads the Bible and doesn't really apply any other knowledge except for it...Your probably looking for some denomination I belong to, but I don't really consider myself part of any denomination. Why? There's really only one denomination, it's called Christian. Jesus in fact prayed a prayer (can remember the exact passage) that all Christians would be one. I'm pretty sure there's several places where the bible says that God's people are not divided, etc, etc.[/b]

thats good I personally don't hold myself under a denomination not for the same reasons but because my beliefs line up with none of them.

solos scripture is more or less what you thought. the view is that scripture is the final and only authority in matters. and they would often leave behind several biblical interpretation rules in order to make things fit.

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total depravity is the doctrine that there is no part of man untouched by sin. this does not however mean that man is as bad as he possibly can be.

do you see fruits as actions?

I see the fruits as being more the result of our actions. I agree that a sinners work will always result in sin but not their every action as being a sin in itself. we could say that they are constantly sinning on the idea of constant unrepetance. but I don't think it would be possible (without other scriptures that more explicitly state the idea) to say that the fruit is our actions and thus anything an non believer does is sinful.

also as the chris has pointed out in his post this parable is talking about people who call themselves christians and false prophets. As it is a parable we have to be carefull when taing any extra teaching from it that isn't part of the original purpose (without other supporting scriptures)

Matthew 7

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

1 John 2

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[d] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

False prophets are essentially anti-christs, correct ;) We often use the word Antichrist to represent only THE Antichrist mentioned in Revelation. But according to this passage every unbeliever is an antichrist. The antichrist is the liar. And what do false prophets do? They lie in spreading false truth. This may seem like a stretch, but if every false prophet is an antichrist, and all unbelievers are antichrists... then we would conclude false prophets is referring to every unbeliever. Thus the passage is saying by their fruit you will recognize whether they are a Christian.

sorry the first statement should read

you could make the arguement "everything a non believer does cannot please god" biblically

It depends from which viewpoint you are taking good to be. you are taking bad and good to be white and black with no grey in between and so therefore your logic stands. This is quite possibly be how god (in infinate wisdom and knowledge) views good and bad but I think for us humans (incredibally limited and confined in our wisdom and knowledge) can not view these things in such a way for it would often lead to ignorance and often thinking one thing is on one side when infact if we held the full picture we would see quite the oppisite.

Yeah, I'm taking good and bad to be white and black.

Revelation 3

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

This passage says that lukewarm deeds, or gray deeds, are the same as black deeds.

thats good I personally don't hold myself under a denomination not for the same reasons but because my beliefs line up with none of them.

solos scripture is more or less what you thought. the view is that scripture is the final and only authority in matters. and they would often leave behind several biblical interpretation rules in order to make things fit.[/b]

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Let's just start out by saying your argument is false. Everything a nonbeliever does is a sin. EVERYTHING. If an unbeliever gives money to help the starving children in Africa, it's a sin. If an unbeliever stops to help out a man who popped a tire, it's a sin. Everything an unbeliever does is sin. Now I knw you're probably thinking about what angry reply you can send me as you read this about how an act of kindness isn't sin... Let's examine this a bit closer. An unbeliever does NOT believe in the one true God and that Christ is the Son of God, etc, etc. Therefore their entire basis for their life is wrong. What did Jesus say the greatest command is? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Ok, so if you don't believe Christ to be the Son of God then you can't love God because you believe he's a liar. You can't believe in God but not love him, it's not possible. So if you don't believe in God you do not love him. Everything you do if you do not believe in God is a sin because you are not doing it for God, but for your own glory, or maybe even another person's glory, but not God's. If you don't love God then you can't glorify him in all that you do. Therefore if an unbeliever gives money to the starving children in Africa it is a sin because he does not believe in God. If a Christian does it, a true Christian, so that they may glorify God in serving in him, etc, etc, in his name. Then it is not a sin.[/b]

Psalm 150:6 says

Let everything that hath breath praise the Lord.

so every breathing nonbeliever that praises God is sinning according to you but it specifically says EVERYTHING so how can someone be sinning when it says specifically eveything that hath breath praise the Lord. you cant be sinning if your following a direct commandment from the bible regardless of whether you believe in God or not

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I don't see you backing up anything you're saying with scripture, whereas I have.

Yes, in my idea I am saying it is wrong for a non-Christian to give to a charity. It's wrong for a non-Christian to do anything. I have backed this up with scripture in my above post. To be honest I don't really care what your opinion is, I care what your translation of the scripture is. That way we can find where both of us may have misinterpreted the text. It isn't about what we think, it matters what God says, what his word says, and what is right. I don't think it's a good idea to rely on our opinions as we were all born as fallen beings.[/b]

Whoa, hold up dkkev, you honestly believe that what your saying is true. If so, then I really feel sorry for you. Luckily, I don't believe in god so your whole argument is kind of moot to me. However, I too have read the Bible and I found nothing that even remotely suggests what your trying to prove. Using out of context scripture does not mean that you can go and say that everything a non-christian does is wrong. It is that kind of arrogance that gives your religion a bad name among non-christians; and since christians believe that the goal of christianity is to bring such people to christ isn't what you are saying kind of counter- productive?

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Wow. Interesting thread. It's been a while since I've been on here.

In regards to the topic at hand, since when are we bound by scripture to listen to one particular genre of music? If everyone followed this logic, all we'd have of music evolution would be Handel, Bach, and Gospel Choirs. The music you listen to today, christian or no, owes it's roots directly to secular music of some kind or another. Now you can say that becoming "christian" has whitewashed it and made it holy, but you've got to admit that sounds shallow.

I have nothing against Christian music. I think 95% of it is worth listening to. If that's the way you worship. I appreciate music and songs, and enjoy worship services at church. But honestly I feel far closer to the Lord when I write out a journal entry to him, or gaze into his creation with no background noise. Because to me that's all music is. Background noise, to be amused by should I feel the need.

If music to me is background noise, and I were to follow your (forgetting the people's names here, sorry) directives that I should only listen to Christian music, then whenever I would be listening to and ignoring the music around me, I would be ignoring God. Familiarity breeds contempt, and the idea that all I can listen to is one narrow genre of music (Whose lyrics are one of two things: "I love you Lord" or "The end times are here, and I'm gonna believe in God, not no nasty antichrist") is repugnant to me.

What kind of music do I prefer, you ask? 1930-1969. Pretty much anything from the top of the charts in those years, minus the druggie music of the late 60's. Broadway Showtunes. Film Soundtracks (a favorite is the instrumental theme from Pirates of the Caribbean). You honestly mean to tell me that the soundtrack to Mary Poppins is against God because it says nothing to glorify him? I think you guys have your priorities mixed up.

God is worthy of our praise, absolutely. But who are you to dictate to God what methods he may use to connect with you? If you are only allowing yourself access to one "channel" of life, you are much like Job right before God reams him out in Chapter 40. Job is very upset (and he does have a right to be) because God used him as a pawn, and he starts to tell God off, in the guise of a complaint about his bad luck. And God tears him a new one. WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I MADE THE EARTH? DID YOU PUT THE STARS IN THEIR PLACES? ARE YOU AT THE HEART OF THE CYCLONE? (CRV Clint's remembered version)

You see, by limiting yourself to someone else's definition of "christian" you make it impossible for God to speak to you by any other method than the constant praise fest you have tuned in. And God has other messages besides Praise. Just look at Jeremiah if you need proof.

Now, please understand, I'm not saying that all music is good, or that you should go on an unlimited do what you want free for all, entertainment wise. But do stretch out and see what else is out there to learn about God on the other channels. For instance, watch Lord of the Rings, and see sacrifice for friends in a non-christlike example. Or watch the new movie "Jumper" and see that all actions have consequences. Or listen to the latest report on Britney Spears (don't worry, if you miss one, there'll be another soon) and make a note to yourself that not all plans come to fruition. Not too long ago, she was a christian teenager who didn't want to have sex until marriage. Now she's mocked worldwide, her kids have been taken away, and she can't stop her addictions to various drugs. So instead of shaking your head in disgust at her and her modern secular music, say a prayer that she'll find hope and forgiveness.

*gets off pulpit*

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hi everyone

i just wanted to ask in your opinion what do you think secular or satanic music is and do you think us christians should only listen to christian music .

just curious to Know ;)[/b]

Satanic :huh: I'm not sure what that is, but isn't the name a given not to listen to it lol.

In regards to secular music, I have flipped-flopped on the issue quite a bit, but I would not encourage Christians to listen to it. Mainly, because the lyrics can encourage things that are against our faith. Currently, I do not listen to any secular music. 95% of the music I listen to is classical, and about 5% is worship.

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Guest FirefromtheEast
Let's just start out by saying your argument is false. Everything a nonbeliever does is a sin. EVERYTHING. If an unbeliever gives money to help the starving children in Africa, it's a sin. If an unbeliever stops to help out a man who popped a tire, it's a sin. Everything an unbeliever does is sin. Now I knw you're probably thinking about what angry reply you can send me as you read this about how an act of kindness isn't sin... Let's examine this a bit closer. An unbeliever does NOT believe in the one true God and that Christ is the Son of God, etc, etc. Therefore their entire basis for their life is wrong. What did Jesus say the greatest command is? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Ok, so if you don't believe Christ to be the Son of God then you can't love God because you believe he's a liar. You can't believe in God but not love him, it's not possible. So if you don't believe in God you do not love him. Everything you do if you do not believe in God is a sin because you are not doing it for God, but for your own glory, or maybe even another person's glory, but not God's. If you don't love God then you can't glorify him in all that you do. Therefore if an unbeliever gives money to the starving children in Africa it is a sin because he does not believe in God. If a Christian does it, a true Christian, so that they may glorify God in serving in him, etc, etc, in his name. Then it is not a sin.[/b]

I'm not Christian, but will continue to help fellow humans and do more in the future, regardless if the Bible says it is sin. I'm not a kind person because I want glory; I show kindness to give to/help others; and putting others before myself :)

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I'm not Christian, but will continue to help fellow humans and do more in the future, regardless if the Bible says it is sin.[/b]

It does not. Sin is sin, regardless of who does it.

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Whoa, hold up dkkev, you honestly believe that what your saying is true. If so, then I really feel sorry for you. Luckily, I don't believe in god so your whole argument is kind of moot to me. However, I too have read the Bible and I found nothing that even remotely suggests what your trying to prove. Using out of context scripture does not mean that you can go and say that everything a non-christian does is wrong. It is that kind of arrogance that gives your religion a bad name among non-christians; and since christians believe that the goal of christianity is to bring such people to christ isn't what you are saying kind of counter- productive?[/b]

Titus 1

10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Well, I was going to type all the scriptures out, but luckily I found this:

http://www.fellowshipbibleannarbor.org/Bib...l/GoodWorks.pdf

This outlines what 'good works' are and explains and such why everything an unbeliever does is sin.

Psalm 150:6 says

Let everything that hath breath praise the Lord.

so every breathing nonbeliever that praises God is sinning according to you but it specifically says EVERYTHING so how can someone be sinning when it says specifically eveything that hath breath praise the Lord. you cant be sinning if your following a direct commandment from the bible regardless of whether you believe in God or not[/b]

Whoa! That's out of context...

1 Praise the LORD. [a]

Praise God in his sanctuary;

praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;

praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,

praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,

praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,

praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.

Praise the LORD.

First off, that's a complete oxymoron, a nonbeliever doesn't praise God, I'd even go as far to say that an unbeliever can't praise God. If an unbeliever praised God he wouldn't be an unbeliever.

Col 3

22Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.

Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men...

Hmmm... There's many scriptures saying such things as this, all of which basically sum up to the meaning, "Whatever you do, do it for the glory of the Lord". You don't give money to a starving people because they're starving, if that's your reason then it is not a good deed. You give money to a starving people because, most importantly, you're doing it for God. If you're not doing it for God, you're doing it for men, or yourself, or something else equally insignificant.

Read my above post and go to that link, it will explain a bit about good/bad deeds ;)

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Correct me if I'm wrong, what kind of music does the world listen to. If you listen to the same music the world listens to in their style of life, then it is very likely you are walking in darkness.[/b]

I've seen people say this before. I don't believe you are interpreting the definition of "worldly" right.

If having or doing "worldly things" meant things on this Earth literally as you are saying, then that would mean that we could basically do nothing. You would have to leave this forum right now, because it is using IPB, software made by a company that is not glorifying God in any way. You would have to quit your job unless it is Christian service, because you are being "worldly" by working for worldly money.

I'm assuming that you are saying that there are certain forms of music that are acceptable. The Bible does give us examples of instruments, singing, etc. that are used in worship to God and such. However, nowhere did I catch that those are the only instruments or music styles you are allowed to use. There was not the technology for much of the music we listen to today, anyway.

Now dkkev's argument is that since the world listens to certain types of music, that they are not acceptable for our use. Correct me if I'm wrong, but rock music is not universally loved by everyone, and there are many more people I know that prefer classical music or folk or country music to rock or hip-hop. And many of these people are not Christians.

Every single type of music today is listened to by both Christians and non-Christians. There is no music style that is not listened to and loved by "the world", as in non-Christians. With this reasoning, then all music, as well as pretty much everything else as I have covered previously in this post, would be prohibited for a Christian.

Now I believe that music that is anti-Christian or has cursing, etc. or glorifies sinful things, then we should not listen to it. We are to fill ourselves with things "noble, pure, just, holy, of good report" according to Phillipians 4:8. But if music does not violate that command, then how can we say that we should not listen to it? What you are in effect saying is that music listened to by non-Christians is sinful. Why? Because they are sinners? We all sin, therefore we are all worldly. Anything you find here on this earth-music, food, your house, your car, was produced by a sinner and is therefore worldly.

I hope this contributes something to the discussion. ;) I also hope that I did not sound hostile in any way.

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