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xxJust-mexx

Men and Women equal?

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Hey :)

Im one of those girls that cant stand sexism, againt women of men. I really think were equal in everything and that one gender is in no way more important than the other. Women shouldnt be expected to stay at home and be the perfect housewife if they want to work and men shouldnt have to go out to work if they want to be house-husbands. I think now in the 21st centuary women and men should be considered equal in everything.

It annoys me that the next in line to the throne, no matter the age is always a man. ARGHH and also on average women get payed 20% less for the same job and the same hours as men do.

Anyway, what do you think are women and men equal in society? Equal to God? Equal in roles? and should they be

love

kia xx

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It annoys me that the next in line to the throne, no matter the age is always a man.[/b]

I didn't understand this part... the next in line to the British throne is indeed a man, but it's purely chance that the Queen's first born was a son O_o

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No, no, no, no, no and then - NO...

We are not, never been and can never be equal...

It's very simple - we are different... We were made in a different way, we have different functions, way of thinking, understanding and so on... you are neither my equal, nor are you equal to any other female...

If you think this is close minded, then you know nothing... every person is unique, and understanding that is what makes you acceptant, open to the world and the people (I will probably be misunderstood here)... not all can draw, sing, run fast, understand mathematics, be organised or not and many, many more in the same way, others are...

God never said we are equal either, He gave authority to men, as well as our need for someone who can compleat us - women (well... if you're normal, that is)...

Personaly, I prefer talking with girls, for they understand me better, so again, there is a difference...

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I didn't understand this part... the next in line to the British throne is indeed a man, but it's purely chance that the Queen's first born was a son O_o[/b]

yeh this time. But all throughout British history, no matter who is born first the male always gets the throne. For example, Mary, Elizabeth and Edward. Edward became King when he was about 6 years old even though his two older sisters were the perfect age to be queen.

fair? :P

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"Men are equal in liberty, but not other endowments."

~St. Thomas Aquinas.

No, men are not equal to women because no one person is equal to any other person. A child with three limbs is not equal to a child with four limbs, John McCain is not equal to Barack Obama, Hitler was not equal to Mother Theresa. Because everyone is unique, everyone is in some way unequal to everyone else.

That said, I should treat everyone objectively. I should not, for instance, refuse to hire women capable of doing the given job.

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This depends on what you mean by "equal".

I think all people should have equal standing under the law. If a man can legally do something, a woman should be able to legally do it as well.

I also think gender roles should be personal preference. If a man or a woman thinks that they have specific roles they need to perform, then I say "more power to them". However, I do not think it should be gender roles should ever be forced on someone who does not want them. Due to this, I think all people should be equal under gender roles.

Do I think people are equal in society, roles, and under the law? No.

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A woman can do whatever and man can do and vice versa. And men can not have any authority over women in my opinion. Each to his/her own.

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yeh this time. But all throughout British history, no matter who is born first the male always gets the throne. For example, Mary, Elizabeth and Edward. Edward became King when he was about 6 years old even though his two older sisters were the perfect age to be queen.

fair? :P[/b]

Completely.

I am a firm believer in separate roles. Men are the providers and women are mostly to be caretakers of the household, not in a slave form, but just that's their role. Women are supposed to spend their childhood growing up learning how to be a woman of integrity to be a good wife so that dishes are cleaned and food is prepared and so forth.

This doesn't mean the man can't clean nor prepare food, he very well should, but men's role is to be the provider and protector.

I'd rather not have my wife work a job, just because I wouldn't want her to. I'd want her to be able to stay at home. I can't imagine anyone enjoys working (I sure don't) so I will do my best to provide that she may rest at home doing whatever she so pleases while I work and provide.

Biblical roles are a glorious thing.

However, there are exceptions.

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While I appreciate this part:

This doesn't mean the man can't clean nor prepare food, he very well should, but men's role is to be the provider and protector.

I'd rather not have my wife work a job, just because I wouldn't want her to. I'd want her to be able to stay at home. I can't imagine anyone enjoys working (I sure don't) so I will do my best to provide that she may rest at home doing whatever she so pleases while I work and provide.[/b]

Sources for this, please?

Men are the providers and women are mostly to be caretakers of the household, not in a slave form, but just that's their role. Women are supposed to spend their childhood growing up learning how to be a woman of integrity to be a good wife so that dishes are cleaned and food is prepared and so forth.[/b]

Sidenote: Or was all that supposed to be in the context of "I am a firm believer in..."? If it was, then please do ignore the request for sources, as beliefs don't actually need sources, last time I checked. :P

Edit: Note that I'm not actually arguing or disagreeing with anyone who has posted in this thread so far, or even engaged in the debate in any meaningful way whatsoever. Just asking one person to expand on their views, that's all.

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Guest FirefromtheEast

Women and men are not equal. Equal means the same.

Men and women are equal in value.

I, like Jake am a believer in gender roles. Male and female can best be summed up with a yin-yang (though I usually use this symbol for showing an ideal marriage, I think it applies here.)

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While I appreciate this part:

Sources for this, please?

Sidenote: Or was all that supposed to be in the context of "I am a firm believer in..."? If it was, then please do ignore the request for sources, as beliefs don't actually need sources, last time I checked. :P

Edit: Note that I'm not actually arguing or disagreeing with anyone who has posted in this thread so far, or even engaged in the debate in any meaningful way whatsoever. Just asking one person to expand on their views, that's all.[/b]

Considering it's nearing 1 in the morning here and I have things to attend to tomorrow I don't have the time to provide the specific quotes or anything but I hate going to bed leaving a post just waiting for me.

I will give you a very quick "out there" answer that I believe Ephesians chapter 5 at some point mentions marriage and roles, 1 Corinthians has some things on the rules of marriage, Song of Solomon is flooded with marital discussion and I believe Solomon's wife describes Solomon as her "protector" and things of that nature. II Timothy has things to say on Marriage (I think, I will look tomorrow once I have time.)

All this to say is that marriage is like Christ and the church, and this is reflected heavily in Song of Solomon which paints a beautiful portrait of it.

I'm not saying women need to wear skirts or anything and stay at home hitchin' up the buggy, churning lots of butter, and raising the barn on Monday (Amish Paradise, baby!), and nor am I insisting that we need to live in OT, not that anyone has made this claim, but throughout the entire course of the Bible women most of the time were working indoors, where there were women (much like Ruth) who worked outdoors which was actually in that day a turn off. I can't prove that last part, it was just culture that I'm aware of.

Regardless of all things said, the entire New Testament has a lot to say in reflection towards marriage and the women of the Bible prove to be excellent role models for women. I do believe like I said before in circumstances such as today, it is now seeming to be a requirement to have both spouses working simultaneously to make ends meet which proves to be a different scenario. I do believe though that women were created to raise children at home as opposed to fathers, unless once again given situations where say the father is laid off which is different.

To make my points clear: I believe that in normal situations the husband should be the provider and the wife should be a caretaker. But I believe marriage is unity so they both work together. My thoughts are also that when there are children the wife is to (if possible) remain home to take care of the child. I am not an advocate of day care, not that it's evil I think it fails to provide proper parenting to some degrees later in life, if you understand what I mean by that.

I will do some diggin' for you tomorrow afternoon or evening, Jman.

And to clarify once again: I do believe that if a woman does the exact same job as a man she should be entitled to proper pay unless one of the two has been working there for a long time and as a result of hierarchy is given a bigger salary just due to say a ten year commitment as opposed to a woman who's been there for one year, and vice versa.

Men and women are equal in terms or rights and so forth but I do not believe they share roles in regards to marriage, I can't remember where but if I'm not mistaken the Bible does say somewhere that the man is to lead the household but if it's not there don't be killing me over it, there's a lot of knowledge going in my head right now and remembering it all is difficult.

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Guitar Guy, I really disgaree with what you have to say when you said

"Women are supposed to spend their childhood growing up learning how to be a woman of integrity to be a good wife so that dishes are cleaned and food is prepared and so forth."

WHAT? were supposed to spend our childhoods learning how to clean, do dishes and be great wives? Also, when a kid comes into the family the woman meeds to abandon any career she might previously have enjoyed having to stay at home look after your child and you, do the cleaning and dishes?

What ever happened to 21st centuary. Yeh, the Bible portryas women as having these jobs, however, even the NT was written about 2,000 years ago. The Bible also says slaves and women are the mens property. You gonna agree that we should still have slaves and men should be able to have more than 1 wife??

My mum loved her work so much, it was what she lived for - she was a Managing Director of a great company that she loved and earnt a lot of the money. My dad was a policeman. They both loved their jobs and i know my mum would have been really miserable without going into work. She tried to take time off to look after us but she got panicky and depressed about not being able to do her job.

My dad decided to stay off and look after us when we were little - and we all turned out well. :) I think that my mum being the main breadwinner and my dad doing the child care/house duties when we were younger was fine. Were ot living in the middle ages anymore.

Modern men have to come to terms with the fact - many women want to work

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Guest FirefromtheEast
WHAT? were supposed to spend our childhoods learning how to clean, do dishes and be great wives?[/b]

You can do other things as well, but I fail to see how preparing for future life is bad.

Also, when a kid comes into the family the woman meeds to abandon any career she might previously have enjoyed having to stay at home look after your child and you, do the cleaning and dishes?[/b]

For the good of my child, I would certainly give up my career. I would never leave a child in the hands of someone else to raise. Of course, if, with the addition of the child, you need more money, you would get a job.

What ever happened to 21st centuary.[/b]

It got seriously messed up by the feminist ideals of western society. (the IMO disclaimer)

Yeh, the Bible portryas women as having these jobs, however, even the NT was written about 2,000 years ago. The Bible also says slaves and women are the mens property.You gonna agree that we should still have slaves and men should be able to have more than 1 wife??[/b]

By flimpies! I shouldn`t answer this part. But, you are bringing irrelevant topics into this debate. We are not talking about slaves or polygamy.

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they are equal in rights as they are both a human , but in function , physiology they are totally different ,

the woman function at home is so valuable as she rise the most important item in the universe , it is the human .

i think the matter needs some confidence , it isn't a competition between men and women , it is a relation that must be efficient to keep a good family , community and world . both are complementary to each other .but both are equal to God.

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Define your criteria for equal. Once you have, you'll then find no two people are equal, no matter what the sex. And why should they be? After all, why make us different if we weren't supposed to be different?

We are equal in God's love. But the bible does have defined roles for a man and a wife. A marriage should be egalitarian, but of course each person will be stronger at different things. For example my dad does most of the cleaning around the house and my stepmom takes care of the money situation. Its silly to try to mold into roles that don't always fit.

Men and women are not equal in terms of society. Women make about 75% of what men make, especially if it is a better job. Women and men are biologically different as well, obviously.

Response to Guitar guy; In regards to the daycare issue. Daycare is not as good as parenting, but in American society is it generally a necessity. However, if the mother chooses to stay home, it is actually more work to be a stay at home mother in many cases than if she chose a 9-5 job. However, studies have shown that men and women are pretty much equal when it comes to parenting. After the child is no longer breastfeeding, the baby responds equally well to either the mother or the father. I don’t see why it should be just the women who have to stay at home and take care of the children.

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Men and women are equal, yet have different roles. God designed marriage so that the man would lead the woman. Not to be more important than her, but to love and lead her as Christ loves and leads the church. Her role is to submit to his authority. Not to be less important than him, but to submit to him as the church is to submit to Christ.

Obviously not all men are leaders, and not all women are followers. But that is the norm that God designed.

My desire for my marriage, assuming God has marriage in my future, is that I would be the provider and she would be the homemaker. Now perhaps at first we would both have jobs, but when we have kids, assuming God has kids in my future, I would want my wife to be a full-time mother to them, and perhaps homeschool them, and I would want to be able to support the family financially as the head of the household and spiritual leader.

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I get in debates with guys about this all the time.

I am not going to be anything close to submissive, I'm just not a welcome mat.

I know thats supposedly not what the Bible means by the word submissive, but I can't help but get that visual out of my head.

Fact is, if I am going to school this long to build a career, I want that career, I don't want my husband "with the final say" to tell me I have to stay home and watch the kids and clean the house. It wouldn't happen. Kids off to daycare and mommy is back to work.

I am spending good money right now getting this education. I am going to put it to use for as long as I can.

If he has an issue with it, he can cook and clean. No big deal.

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I seriously have a problem with men saying "once we have children my wife will be the one to stay home and raise them" and it has been mentioned several times. Firstly, why if you want your kids to be raised by their parents wont you offer to do the everday care? Secondly, I would assume you would only allow yourself to marry someone who wants to be a stay at home mother, otherwise I don't see how you could force a wife to do this. Personally my mother wasn't stay at home, neither was my father, and yet we never had a nanny or went to day care. It isn't that difficult to get jobs that have seperate scheduals so there is always someone at home, my parents managed this quite well as my dad would start work later so he could drive us to school, and my mother would finish work earlier so she could pick us up. It worked fine in my family and both my parents loved their jobs while still taking care of us. In fact I lived a quite charmed childhood and wouldn't have changed it for the world.

Personally I see the family as an equal relationship in the sense each spouce has equal responsibility and equal consideration. However they want to divide that is up to them so long as each person is able to get what they want and no one dictates what someones role in the family unit should be based off gender. Looking at people as genders rather than people is in my opinion hugely underrating their individualities.

Women and men should have equal opportunity to do what they feel is best for them. That is where equality matters. Whether that means women want to stay at home, work, or do anything in between is their choice so long as they have that choice and no one forces a choice on them.

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I'ms pending too much on my education to buy into this "you should stay home to cook, clean, and be pregnant" horse hockey.

The supporters of the idea that women should be homefail to realize that it's really not going to be an easy option to have one spouse not working. Life is too expensive for that, especially with the spending our government is doing that our generation will have to pay for.

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No, no, no, no, no and then - NO...

We are not, never been and can never be equal...

It's very simple - we are different... We were made in a different way, we have different functions, way of thinking, understanding and so on... you are neither my equal, nor are you equal to any other female...

If you think this is close minded, then you know nothing... every person is unique, and understanding that is what makes you acceptant, open to the world and the people (I will probably be misunderstood here)... not all can draw, sing, run fast, understand mathematics, be organised or not and many, many more in the same way, others are...

God never said we are equal either, He gave authority to men, as well as our need for someone who can compleat us - women (well... if you're normal, that is)...

Personaly, I prefer talking with girls, for they understand me better, so again, there is a difference...[/b]

Nice job makeing a big argument about everyone being created differently, then contradicting it by defining something as normal.

I think that both women and men should do as they feel, they are created equal in value and can do most everything that the other can with exceptions being the obvious. I agree that if a women goes to college and school for a career she shouldn't have to give it up for anything except her choice.

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My wife submits to me :) Not that Im the boss, but I am the leader. She would only let me lead, as long as I lead her towards God. Thats it...

We are both equal in God's eyes. (Dont know if He has eyes, probably not...but you know what I mean), BUT we have different roles.

I seriously have a problem with men saying "once we have children my wife will be the one to stay home and raise them" and it has been mentioned several times. Firstly, why if you want your kids to be raised by their parents wont you offer to do the everday care? Secondly, I would assume you would only allow yourself to marry someone who wants to be a stay at home mother, otherwise I don't see how you could force a wife to do this. Personally my mother wasn't stay at home, neither was my father, and yet we never had a nanny or went to day care. It isn't that difficult to get jobs that have seperate scheduals so there is always someone at home, my parents managed this quite well as my dad would start work later so he could drive us to school, and my mother would finish work earlier so she could pick us up. It worked fine in my family and both my parents loved their jobs while still taking care of us. In fact I lived a quite charmed childhood and wouldn't have changed it for the world.

Personally I see the family as an equal relationship in the sense each spouce has equal responsibility and equal consideration. However they want to divide that is up to them so long as each person is able to get what they want and no one dictates what someones role in the family unit should be based off gender. Looking at people as genders rather than people is in my opinion hugely underrating their individualities.

Women and men should have equal opportunity to do what they feel is best for them. That is where equality matters. Whether that means women want to stay at home, work, or do anything in between is their choice so long as they have that choice and no one forces a choice on them.[/b]

:) Something random, when I saw this title, I thought, "Seaisabella will have smething to say about this" :P

If my wife made more money than me, I would gladly stay home...but she didnt, so I make the money, she spends it...all of it...lol

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I get in debates with guys about this all the time.

I am not going to be anything close to submissive, I'm just not a welcome mat.

I know thats supposedly not what the Bible means by the word submissive, but I can't help but get that visual out of my head.

Fact is, if I am going to school this long to build a career, I want that career, I don't want my husband "with the final say" to tell me I have to stay home and watch the kids and clean the house. It wouldn't happen. Kids off to daycare and mommy is back to work.

I am spending good money right now getting this education. I am going to put it to use for as long as I can.

If he has an issue with it, he can cook and clean. No big deal.[/b]

I totally agree with this, and many of the other statements made on here :)

About the men that have said they are the leader and that when there are kids they want their wives to stay home, cook, clean, tidy and look after the children - i think this is completely absurd. Women arent slaves, they dont have to submit to you guys, if you want someone to stay home and look after the kids, and clean, and tidy - either you do it or hire someone to.

Does it appeal to you to have no career and stay at home tidying, sweeping, cooking, baking, washing up, raiding the kids and basically having no life of your own? If the answer is "yes" then you stay at home and do it. If the answer is "no" think how the women must feel being expected to drop their career and lives to work as some kind of, (although loved and respected) servant.

Kia.

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Guest FirefromtheEast

While I don`t agree with the submission factor in marriage (marriage is comparable to a yin-yang - again, only my opinion here), I have to disagree with this bit you posted:

Does it appeal to you to have no career and stay at home tidying, sweeping, cooking, baking, washing up, raiding the kids and basically having no life of your own? If the answer is "yes" then you stay at home and do it. If the answer is "no" think how the women must feel being expected to drop their career and lives to work as some kind of, (although loved and respected) servant.[/b]

:blink: How did you decide that taking care of a home and raising children = having no life? That makes zero sense.

I personally think if you are unwilling to take care of your own children, and just sticking them in daycares or with nannies, you shouldn`t even be a parent.

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Ok, now my opinion on the "Woman staying at home after kids and cooking blah blah blah...."

Alright, no woman should ever feel forced to stay at home and look after the kids, a woman that has a career loves her children just as much as a housewife.

When people want women to stay at home, why doesn't anyone ever mention the man having to stay at home?

In some households, the woman earns way more than her husband.

And btw I will never do any of that submission stuff with my husband.

How did you decide that taking care of a home and raising children = having no life? That makes zero sense.[/b]

I agree with Kia, some women aren't the "housewife" type and therefore see a life where there is no career, no success and ability to make money the same as being locked up and having no life.

I'm a very career driven person and if I don't succeed in my job and end up cooking and cleaning all day, I'll basically see myself as worthless and having no life because that's just my personality.

Every woman is different. (Just my opinion)

I personally think if you are unwilling to take care of your own children, and just sticking them in daycares or with nannies, you shouldn`t even be a parent.[/b]

Women with careers take care of their children just fine. And again, can't there be such thing as "Househusbands" instead?

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