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Christianteen

2520 Days of the Tribulation from Feast of Trumpets 2015 to Tisha B'Av 2022

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I guess only when you really push it. But I don't imagine that the Reformers ever understood sola scriptura to be a complete annulment of any and every tradition of the Roman Church.

Anyway, I meant for my previous post to lead into the fact that the bible simply doesn't describe "End Times" in any way what so ever. Apocalyptic literature is "revelatory literature", it describes contemporary (for the audience) times. If the book of Revelation was about the twenty-first century then it simply would have been thrown away, it wouldn't have been of any significance to anyone that the book seemingly addressed. Why would the church in Laodecia care about Zionism? Why should Philadelphia care about the USSR and the USA? Doesn't it make you laugh a little bit inside when you -really- think about it? :-)

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I guess only when you really push it. But I don't imagine that the Reformers ever understood sola scriptura to be a complete annulment of any and every tradition of the Roman Church.

The reason it doesn't affect Sola Scriptura is because the things you listed are not the scope of scripture. Sola Scriptura does not mean that the Bible contains all truth about everything that has ever happened and everything that ever will happen. Considering the fact that there is a gap of about 400 years that nothing was written, it's obvious that it does not. However, Sola Scriptura does mean that Scripture is the supreme authority on all Doctrinal beliefs. If anything contradicts Scripture, it is to be thrown away. Also, the Reformers probably did throw Tradition (capital T) because that implies that it is on the level of Scripture. They didn't abandon tradition (lower case t) though, so long as it lines up with the text of Scripture. To say that Sola Scriptura is wrong because the Bible says nothing of computers is a silly argument.

Sorry for going so far off topic :D

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The reason it doesn't affect Sola Scriptura is because the things you listed are not the scope of scripture. Sola Scriptura does not mean that the Bible contains all truth about everything that has ever happened and everything that ever will happen. Considering the fact that there is a gap of about 400 years that nothing was written, it's obvious that it does not. However, Sola Scriptura does mean that Scripture is the supreme authority on all Doctrinal beliefs. If anything contradicts Scripture, it is to be thrown away. Also, the Reformers probably did throw Tradition (capital T) because that implies that it is on the level of Scripture. They didn't abandon tradition (lower case t) though, so long as it lines up with the text of Scripture. To say that Sola Scriptura is wrong because the Bible says nothing of computers is a silly argument.

Sorry for going so far off topic :D

I know that is a silly argument. Sola scriptura is strange for so many other reasons. My point was, as I outlined earlier, just to suggest that the bible doesn't address "End Times". That is all. :-)

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I think my pastor has one of the best positions about predicitons of when Jesus will come. Basically, all we find out from someone predicting that Jesus will come back on a certain day is that he won't come back on that date.

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Doesn't that just illustrate some of the problems with the Reformers doctrine of "sola scriptura"? No scripture says that computers will ever exist, cars, air planes and no scripture has ever said that someone named "Daniel_of_Southern" will ever ever exist. Scripture doesn't discuss it because scriptures aren't about everything, they're about some things.

There are problems both with Sola Scriptura and the Catholics' belief in Pope over Scripture. Scripture was written by humans and the Pope is human. Both are prone to fallacy. We believe Scripture is God-breathed and Catholics believe God granted the Pope with the ability to interpret Scripture correctly. Either both can be wrong or both can be right. It's happened in the past on both accounts.

Now let's get back on topic :D

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There are problems both with Sola Scriptura and the Catholics' belief in Pope over Scripture. Scripture was written by humans and the Pope is human. Both are prone to fallacy. We believe Scripture is God-breathed and Catholics believe God granted the Pope with the ability to interpret Scripture correctly. Either both can be wrong or both can be right. It's happened in the past on both accounts.

Agreed, "infallibility" is an incorrect category for both papal authority and for biblical inspiration. :-)

Now let's get back on topic :D

Agreed . . .

the bible simply doesn't describe "End Times" in any way what so ever. Apocalyptic literature is "revelatory literature", it describes contemporary (for the audience) times. If the book of Revelation was about the twenty-first century then it simply would have been thrown away, it wouldn't have been of any significance to anyone that the book seemingly addressed. Why would the church in Laodecia care about Zionism? Why should Philadelphia care about the USSR and the USA? Doesn't it make you laugh a little bit inside when you -really- think about it? :-)

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You're right! No Scriptures say that Israel will be taken over again! But no Scripture says they won't!

Good I wanted to establish with you that there is nothing in Scripture that says Israel will lose its status as a nation once it is reclaimed again after nearly 2500 years.

But there are verses which say Israel will never lose its status as a nation again, for we see in Matt. 24.32 Israel becomes a nation again then verse 33 says Jesus returns soon after that. Since Jesus returns soon after that then Israel never loses its status as a nation. They build the Temple and the Temple temporarily is overrun during the Tribulation when the False Prophet sets up the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24.15). Israel is only overrun 2 to 3 years before Jesus returns so it's not possible for Israel to be without a nation for more than 3 years.

Think.

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I think my pastor has one of the best positions about predicitons of when Jesus will come. Basically, all we find out from someone predicting that Jesus will come back on a certain day is that he won't come back on that date.

I agree with this. And my opinions of this thread are summed up in the following scriptures.

"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."
"Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

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Matthew 24.33 says we can know when the Triblation starts right at the door.

We did not know back when Jesus spoke these words, but we know now since Israel is a nation again (Matt. 24.32).

When Jesus said we don't know the day or hour he was referring to the end of the millennial kingdom. I am not talking about that. I am referring to the Tribulation and return of Jesus.

Even towards the end of the millennial kingdom we will not always not know, but as we approach the end we will know. The millennial kingdom starts when Jesus returns.

Surely Jesus knows now since He is at the right hand of the Father. It is likely revealed unto the angels now as well, and we can know since Isarel is a nation again.

People misread God's word to shut their minds down.

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Firstly, you're putting a lot of words into God's mouth. He talked about signs such as Christians being persecuted, natural disasters, false Christs and lots of wars. However he never once mentioned names, dates, places or anything like that; which is why i'm wondering where you got that from. Those are your human intepretations, don't put them on equal ground with what the Bible clearly says.

On one hand yes much of what Jesus said is happening today. However on the other hand much of it is due to the increased communication and media around the world and not the increased fighting. People have been predicting the end times and tribulation for centuries, applying the same verses to their times; why is your prediction right?

You also ignore what Jesus says 4 verses later, which is that only the Father knows precisely ("concerning that day and hour"). We can watch, wait, prepare; but we can not be so arrogant as to say we know something only God the Father knows. We can watch the fig tree and know that summer is near, but not the very day it arrives.

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"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates."

There will be signs, that were talked about earlier in the chapter, that will let us know that Jesus' return is near. But the following verses say that we will never know when he will come back, that he will come back when we least expect it.

"Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known it what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

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Good I wanted to establish with you that there is nothing in Scripture that says Israel will lose its status as a nation once it is reclaimed again after nearly 2500 years.

But there are verses which say Israel will never lose its status as a nation again, for we see in Matt. 24.32 Israel becomes a nation again then verse 33 says Jesus returns soon after that. Since Jesus returns soon after that then Israel never loses its status as a nation. They build the Temple and the Temple temporarily is overrun during the Tribulation when the False Prophet sets up the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24.15). Israel is only overrun 2 to 3 years before Jesus returns so it's not possible for Israel to be without a nation for more than 3 years.

Think.

*Facepalm*

It may be true that it says that He won't come back until after Israel is a nation. I never denied that. What YOU need to do is think! It is possible that Israel might lose it's nation status again, and then regain it! It could happen over and over again! That doesn't diminish the fact that Jesus may come back after it becomes a nation again sometime.

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I think the best thing that the Israeli nation and the Palestinian people can do is try to create a single united secular and democratic nation in the region, both sharing in government and neither having to suffer at the hands of the others.

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Firstly, you're putting a lot of words into God's mouth. He talked about signs such as Christians being persecuted, natural disasters, false Christs and lots of wars. However he never once mentioned names, dates, places or anything like that; which is why i'm wondering where you got that from. Those are your human intepretations, don't put them on equal ground with what the Bible clearly says.

I am not putting anything into God's mouth, that's why you can't show it. Since Matt. 24.32 says when Israel is a nation again, we will know when Jesus returns right at the door in verse 33. But you have to read Revelation properly. If you don't see Rev. 6.12 right before the Tribulation starts, you don't understand the Tetrad and H3 solar eclipse or the Haiti earthquake, then I can't help you.

On one hand yes much of what Jesus said is happening today. However on the other hand much of it is due to the increased communication and media around the world and not the increased fighting. People have been predicting the end times and tribulation for centuries, applying the same verses to their times; why is your prediction right?

I am not aware where people were applying the same verses since when has Israel been a nation again in 2500 years (Ezekiel's vision takes us to May, 1948) in Matt. 24.32? Where in history has the H3-Tetrad occurred? It is the first since Christ. Most people don't read the Bible according to partial rapture so most won't understand Rev. 6.12 occurs right before the Tribulation.

You also ignore what Jesus says 4 verses later, which is that only the Father knows precisely ("concerning that day and hour"). We can watch, wait, prepare; but we can not be so arrogant as to say we know something only God the Father knows. We can watch the fig tree and know that summer is near, but not the very day it arrives.

The "day and hour" followed the millennial kingdom mentioned, so it wasn't talking about Jesus' return but the beginning of the New City. Even if it was I could be off 24 hours depending on the crescent of the moon or where a person is standing on the planet at the time on the Feast of Trumpets.

This calculation as you have seen has a probability of 1 in 70,000,000 of being wrong. When have the odds ever been that good in any prophecy? We should not be so arrogant to reject God's word when He says we can know right at the door, then we can know. Don't give into Satan who is trying to shut your mind down to the Tribulation of Sept. 14, 2015 Feast of Trumptes to Aug. 7, 2022 Tisha B'Av (2,520 days).

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I am not putting anything into God's mouth, that's why you can't show it. Since Matt. 24.32 says when Israel is a nation again, we will know when Jesus returns right at the door in verse 33. But you have to read Revelation properly. If you don't see Rev. 6.12 right before the Tribulation starts, you don't understand the Tetrad and H3 solar eclipse or the Haiti earthquake, then I can't help you.

I love this! "If you don't get it, then I can't help you." Why's he even trying to explain, then?

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I love this! "If you don't get it, then I can't help you." Why's he even trying to explain, then?

Because some unlike yourself are open to the truth.

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On one hand yes much of what Jesus said is happening today.

Don't you think it's more likely that the Gospel's were written with the air of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE? I would think that it would make much more sense considering the fact that all the prophets of ancient Israel that predicted doom and gloom had in mind previous destructions of Jerusalem...

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Don't you think it's more likely that the Gospel's were written with the air of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE? I would think that it would make much more sense considering the fact that all the prophets of ancient Israel that predicted doom and gloom had in mind previous destructions of Jerusalem...

Yes, it could be, and Jesus was making it clear that because of these events, the end isn't near. But these things are also going to happen again, and again, and get even worse nearer and nearer the end.

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Yes, it could be, and Jesus was making it clear that because of these events, the end isn't near. But these things are also going to happen again, and again, and get even worse nearer and nearer the end.

OK, why is your second sentence true...?

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Dude, you keep using a verse that says nothing about Israel only becoming a nation ONCE to prove that Israel will only become a nation once. Why didn't Christ tell John the date in Revelation? By then Jesus had ascended into the clouds and been seated on the right hand of the Father. According to you, by then He'd know the time and date. You're using something Jesus said on Earth (which as you claim, He wasn't fully God then and didn't know) but then in Revelation (when as you claim, He would know the time and date) why doesn't He give us the time and date?

NO ONE will ever know when He's coming. People have been trying to pinpoint it ever since Christ prophesied His second coming. All of them have been wrong. They all use the same verses and the same formulas and the same events to predict it. What makes YOU so enlightened to Scripture and the rest of us tools of Satan? How are you any different than the May 21, 2011 guy?

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Don't you think it's more likely that the Gospel's were written with the air of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE? I would think that it would make much more sense considering the fact that all the prophets of ancient Israel that predicted doom and gloom had in mind previous destructions of Jerusalem...

I have a 33 point list why it is impossible for Revelation to have been written before 70 AD so it was written 95 AD,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Aids_to_Revelation.htm

One good reason is all of the early church fathers agreed John wrote Revelation around 95 AD.

Rev. 20.4 says Christians are reigning in the 1000 years. Are Christians reigning today? No.

Are the nations still deceived? Yes. So Rev. 20.3 is not happening yet.

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Dude, you keep using a verse that says nothing about Israel only becoming a nation ONCE to prove that Israel will only become a nation once. Why didn't Christ tell John the date in Revelation? By then Jesus had ascended into the clouds and been seated on the right hand of the Father. According to you, by then He'd know the time and date. You're using something Jesus said on Earth (which as you claim, He wasn't fully God then and didn't know) but then in Revelation (when as you claim, He would know the time and date) why doesn't He give us the time and date?

NO ONE will ever know when He's coming. People have been trying to pinpoint it ever since Christ prophesied His second coming. All of them have been wrong. They all use the same verses and the same formulas and the same events to predict it. What makes YOU so enlightened to Scripture and the rest of us tools of Satan? How are you any different than the May 21, 2011 guy?

Jesus did give John the date of the Revelation but it couldn't be understood (Matt. 24.33) until Israel became a nation again (v.32). Jesus is fully God but scholars correctly say Jesus "emptied Himself of His independent attributes" when He came in the likeness of flesh to die for our sins. Phil. 2 concurs.

"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11).

You need to confess the right Jesus. Many have tried to predict the return of Jesus, but you need to be honest with the data, who has ever had a 1 in 70,000,000 chance of being wrong. Read the proof again. Don't shut your mind down.

"And the LORD said unto me, Arise, take [thy] journey before the people, that they may go in and possess the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give unto them" (Deut. 10.11). "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Gen. 15.18).

"When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory" (Ps. 102.16). "Go to the land of the Canaanites and to Lebanon, and all the way to the great Euphrates River. I am giving all this land to you! Go in and occupy it, for it is the land the LORD swore to give to your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and to all their descendants.'" (Deut. 1.7c,8). "For the LORD will scatter you among the nations, where only a few of you will survive. When those bitter days have come upon you far in the future, you will finally return to the LORD your God and listen to what he tells you. For the LORD your God is merciful--he will not abandon you or destroy you or forget the solemn covenant he made with your ancestors. Search all of history, from the time God created people on the earth until now. Then search from one end of the heavens to the other. See if anything as great as this has ever happened before. Has any nation ever heard the voice of God speaking from fire--as you did--and survived? Has any other god taken one nation for himself by rescuing it from another by means of trials, miraculous signs, wonders, war, awesome power, and terrifying acts? Yet that is what the LORD your God did for you in Egypt, right before your very eyes. He showed you these things so you would realize that the LORD is God and that there is no other god. He drove out nations far greater than you, so he could bring you in and give you their land as a special possession, as it is today" (Deut. 4.27,30-35,38).

Matt. 24.32 The word “now” marks the beginning of the second part. Since the Lord gives this part of His prophecy on the Mount of Olives—a place where there are many fig trees —He quite naturally could use the fig tree as an illustration. “When her branch is now become tender”—This speaks of the return of life. “And putteth forth its leaves”—This means the manifestation of life. The fig tree represents the Jews (Jer. 24.2,5,8). Earlier the Lord had cursed the fig tree which possessed only leaves but had no fruit. In reality the curse was upon the Jews who possessed the outward rituals but had no reality. “Summer” is the season of growth as winter is the season of withering and death. In the summer, life shows its greatest vigor, the air is warm, and the days are bright. It is a golden season, and therefore it stands for the kingdom. The Jews today are in the winter time. Winter points to tribulation, particularly the Great Tribulation. Spring speaks of rapture (see S.S. 2.10-14); summer speaks of the kingdom (see Luke 21.30-31). In Luke 21.29-30 we have the words “and all the trees”—which phrase represents the nations (see Daniel 4.10-17 and Judges 9.8-15). When “all the trees ... now shoot forth” (Luke 21.29-30), this is a signifying that nationalism will have been greatly developed among many peoples and nations.

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I love this! "If you don't get it, then I can't help you." Why's he even trying to explain, then?

Because some people are responsive to the truth once delivered unto the saints. Just because you are not are we suppose to then close up shop and not deliver important truths in God's word? Silly.

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How do you get anything about Israel becoming a nation out of an object lesson made from a fig tree?

You also took the verses in Philippians out of context. Also, look at those parts that you bolded in a more literal, word-for-word translation:

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This doesn't mean that Jesus "emptied himself of His independent attributes." It means that, being born as a baby, "in the likeness of man," he "made himself nothing" in the eyes of men. He could have come as a conqueror, and saved God's chosen people in the way that they expected, but he humbled himself and took on the form of man, to die on a cross to save them from their sins.

What you said in the first paragraph makes it sound like you're saying that Jesus was not both fully God and fully human. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't understand how you can believe that this idea is true, and that Philippians 2 supports it, when Jesus claimed one with the Father.

My sheep bear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will ****** them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is ale to ****** them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

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This doesn't mean that Jesus "emptied himself of His independent attributes." It means that, being born as a baby, "in the likeness of man," he "made himself nothing" in the eyes of men. He could have come as a conqueror, and saved God's chosen people in the way that they expected, but he humbled himself and took on the form of man, to die on a cross to save them from their sins.

What you said in the first paragraph makes it sound like you're saying that Jesus was not both fully God and fully human. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't understand how you can believe that this idea is true, and that Philippians 2 supports it, when Jesus claimed one with the Father.

Humbling yourself and taking the form of a main is emptying yourself of your independent attributes as well.

What I said sounds exactly as I said that Jesus is fully God and fully Man. Jesus is allowed to enter His creation and empty Himself to be in the likeness of flesh. That's why He could say He did not know when He would return. He really didn't know.

You're misreading God's word because you are not considering other passages to help you understand.

Jesus is not the Father. That's an old heresy called modalism. The Trinity is 3 Persons: Father, Son and Spirit. They agreed the Son would atone for sins and in so doing He emptied Himself of some of His abilities but He is still the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Paul said Jesus was co-equal with God, so you can only be equal with God if you are uncreated.

In making Himself of no reputation He is emptying Himself of some attributes. This is proven because He did not know when He would return. He sweated blood too. Without emptying yourself I don't know how you could sweat blood.

You have to be logical as well as spiritual when you read. The emptying allows Him to be fully Man. My prayer is you see this one day.

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