God Doesn't Love Everyone

[TeenLeaderTom]

Well the title is my hook, but I am no longer quite sure whether I believe that or not. Though I recognize this is not objective in any way and I could just be wrong, I saw a woman at the gas station and I just felt like walking up to her and telling her, "God loves you." Yet I suddenly realized that I couldn't say that with certainty because I do not know who God loves and does not love and who he chooses for salvation.....

So greatly did this weigh upon my mind, that I can no longer hold with certainty my previous explanation about God's love, but that goes with saying that I still believe in Calvinism.

As I was driving my car home, I began thinking about things spoken about in the debate on Calvinism and one argument came to mind that was thrown my way saying that election would be "like God as a father choosing only to save some of His children and letting the rest die." Sounds quite brutal and unloving. But if I am wrong, and then what? Does God save all the children? And if the children represent all people, then does God save all people? Do we then affirm universalism?

There is clearly a problem here.

I've heard that man's free will and God's sovereignty is an antinomy, but I don't really believe that at all. I have come to an understanding of how the two are compatible. What is truly an antimony is how God loves everyone yet He only chooses some for salvation. I would quickly turn to arminianism if not for the great amount of Biblical proof supporting election and predestination. I cannot deny the evidence is there. And so it is left to either accept God's love as an antinomy, or to come to a suitable explanation for how God can love all men, and yet choose only some for salvation. That is of course unless God doesn't love all mankind.......

I have more thoughts but I await your inputs first.

edit: word is antinomy, not antimony

[Bewildebeest]

Last I heard Antimony was a metal. Do you mean like a contradiction?

I don't really understand Calvanism or where the idea really comes from but (just guessing) from what I can tell it doesn't rule out an annihilationist viewpoint of hell. Personally believing annihilation as the necessary end result of those not saved removes the stigma of an otherwise "brutal" or "unloving" God. Death is death. Not bad, not good. Simply necessary. But let us remember that brutal is exactly what God is in many cases. He forces Adam and Eve out of paradise, he floods the world, he rains down sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah, turns Lots wife into salt for looking back, he drowns all the Egyptians, strikes down Aaron's kids for not using "holy" fire to praise him or something, orders the Israelites to kill a bunch of people whom's hearts he had deliberately hardened... Wow, not even out of Exodus yet. But all of this for the glory of God. It seems that even if we're not a fan of an apparently "brutal" or "unloving" God we may still find all of this necessary, so perhaps God does just let his children die.

[TeenLeaderTom]

Last I heard Antimony was a metal. Do you mean like a contradiction?

I don't really understand Calvanism or where the idea really comes from but (just guessing) from what I can tell it doesn't rule out an annihilationist viewpoint of hell. Personally believing annihilation as the necessary end result of those not saved removes the stigma of an otherwise "brutal" or "unloving" God. Death is death. Not bad, not good. Simply necessary. But let us remember that brutal is exactly what God is in many cases. He forces Adam and Eve out of paradise, he floods the world, he rains down sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah, turns Lots wife into salt for looking back, he drowns all the Egyptians, strikes down Aaron's kids for not using "holy" fire to praise him or something, orders the Israelites to kill a bunch of people whom's hearts he had deliberately hardened... Wow, not even out of Exodus yet. But all of this for the glory of God. It seems that even if we're not a fan of an apparently "brutal" or "unloving" God we may still find all of this necessary, so perhaps God does just let his children die.

sorry I meant antinomy not antimony

I believe in annihilation, so I agree with you there, but I think it is an assertion that we are all God's children.

If we are not all God's children, and He's not loving some of His children more than others, is He not most loving for saving any of us?

[swampfox]

Tom i fear this is one of the anxiety problems you have that we both share. So for that I won't reassure you in this doubt you have. I will simply tell you to read John 3:16, and to leave it in God's hands. It is not your place to decide who goes to heaven or hell. We are the servants He is the master, HE said worry not, and yet we worry more than we should. Let's just call it quits, and give your mind a break

[SaintPeter]

what I do is just assume that everyone goes to heaven, which I know isnt true, but it is more of a feel good thing because I know when I go to heaven those worries will not come across my mind again and I will be grateful that I am in heaven

[rock4god246]

Here is most of what I have to say on this and what I believe.

You are saying that God chooses who goes to heaven, and that this may determine who he loves and does not love. God does not pick out who he wants with him in eternity and who he wants in hell. Yes, he does know in advance whether or not we will end up in heaven, but it is only because we choose whether or not we want to follow God. I believe that we are all chosen as God's people to be a part of his kingdom. I read a very good argument of "why does a loving God let people go to hell" in a book by Karen Kingsbury. (Title was A Time To Dance.) She said that God does not "send" people to hell. He gives us the option to choose to follow him, and he will honor that choice. I assume you have heard that Satan doesn't necessarily want us to follow him, he just doesn't want us to follow God. So if you do not choose God, you have not chosen heaven, even though you have not chosen Satan or hell.

So having said that, God does not only love one person and not another. We are all his children, and he wants us all with him in eternity. But we were given free will from the beginning, and because of this, it makes an active pursuit of God so much more special to him, because it comes from our own desires and not from anything predetermined that a man's heart would choose God. He wants us to choose him because we want to, and unfortunately, if you do not choose God, you cannot enjoy being with him in heaven, even though he loves you and desires you to be with him. I mean, he loved us all enough to let his son be crucified for all of humanity, whether we choose him or not. There are plenty of people that don't choose God, yet he still gave them the choice, offered the forgiveness, and let his son be murdered, so that they would have the option. Even if they didn't take it.

At the same time, we are not saved by what we do. I do not believe in salvation by baptism, for that is to say it is our works that saved us, and not God's love and forgiveness. Because if we save ourselves, then the glory does not go to God. The only thing we must do to receive salvation is accept Jesus as Lord and choose to follow him. No matter how terrible of a job you do of following God, if you desire to be a part of his kingdom he will grant it to you. His love and forgiveness is completely open to us; it is not selective in any way. His sacrifice grants us the choice, therefore giving him the glory when we accept this salvation.

God's sovereignty does not contradict with our free will. (Or rather, our free will his sovereignty.) If you do not believe that God has the power to make us do whatever he wants us to, he does. And he could if he wanted to. But he doesn't. Because he loves us and wants to see if we will follow him. So he blessed us with free will. No one and nothing can contradict God. Whether or not we understand his power or his love, the fact is, it is there. And we don't have to understand his love to be given it, or his power to submit to it. God is almighty no matter what, and our free will is a privilege given by him.

So what do you think?

[Guest JAG]

Use scripture.

[Daniel_of_Southern]

God loves everyone. He hates the sin. If someone is sinful, He sends him to hell because sin cannot exist with God. He loves them, but they do not love him back. They chose to deny His love and go their own way.

[AquinasD]

Tom, allow me to point out something.

Let us suppose that someone were to claim they could prove, from the Bible, that square circles are possible.

Now, I believe, and you should also, that without even needing to look at which Scripture they cite to "support" their beliefs, that because the Bible is inerrant, and therefore cannot possibly support beliefs which are contrary to logic, you could know that they must somehow be misinterpreting Scripture.

The same holds for Calvinism. Quite simply, there cannot possibly be Scriptural evidence for Calvinism, because its particular doctrines are contrary to logic.

[ElShaddai]

I do not believe in predestination and would like to know where you get your biblical evidence for it.

God loves all people but there is a point where God hates a person, i do not know when this happens or what line they cross to get there.

[DDOG059]

The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. ()What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! ()Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,() (Pro 16:4),(Rom 9:14),(Rom 9:21-22)

It's hard to argue with that, but I will continue You said:

"As I was driving my car home, I began thinking about things spoken about in the debate on Calvinism and one argument came to mind that was thrown my way saying that election would be "like God as a father choosing only to save some of His children and letting the rest die." Sounds quite brutal and unloving. But if I am wrong, and then what? Does God save all the children? And if the children represent all people, then does God save all people? Do we then affirm universalism?"

Who told you all peoples were the children of God?

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Rom 9:6:8)

But, Are you able to walk up to anyone and say: "God Loves you."?

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. ()"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. () (2Pet 3:9),(John 6:37-39)

Truly it is writen:

God shows personal favoritism to no man (Gal 2:6)

So how are we to make sense of all this? Is there a logical way? I shall ask you this: why did Jesus on the night of His betrayal Pray in the Garden of gethsemane? (Matt 26:39) Jesus Being all knowing, knew that He had to die for us to live, and yet He still ask His Father in heaven, for some other way. The way you can look at it is this, there were technically two ways for God to answer His Son's prayer:

A. Jesus died on the cross for all our sins. or

B. Everyone in the world suddenly stopped sinning and never sinned again.

Now the only way B. could happen is if God took away our free will, and If He did this, He could not get the one thing that He asks of us:

what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, (Due 10:12)

He Made you to Love Him, but true love cannot be without choice, else it would be forced, and the Lord in heaven would be seen as crule, and unjust. So oddly enough, The reason why God allows some to go to their destruction is because of His Love.

So can you go up to anyone and say: "God loves you!"? ABSOLUTELY!!! Jesus said: "the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37) Whether they were destined for doom or not, if they come to God, He has promised that He will by no means cast them out.

[randomdisplayname]

Let's call your thoughts an equation for a second shall we?

There's a key variable missing from your equation

Unconditional Love

God unconditionally loves every man, woman, child and those yet to be born that he even now knows.

As well Tom I completely reject the idea of Unconditional Election and assert that God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Jesus. It is just impossible not to believe that people can't use their free will to accept or reject salvation. God does not control every action we make, our actions are our own. Our actions are like a fractal where it branches off into infinity. Our choices of free will are endless but God knows every single path we can take in our lives, and in conjuncture with the Holy spirit he urges us to take the right path but until we make our own decision the future is not laid in stone.

Like Jedi Master Yoda said, "Difficult to tell, the future is, always in motion, always changing." (possible paraphrase) God knows the past the present and every possible future.

[Faithful Kevin]

Remember that the bible shows us that not all people are God's children. 1 John 3:10 is a prime example.

Also, this chapter tells us how we can become God's children. 1 John 3.

God loved the world (as in He loved everyone so much, He did what He did). That's why He gave His only begotten Son.

Remember John 3:16.

God is against the darkness though. He is complete light with no sin.

He is enemy of those who are friends of the world. James 4:4

[TeenLeaderTom]

I would like to first apologize to everyone for my prolonged absence before I begin some responding. I was in the middle east for 20 days and so I fell behind in keeping up with the debate. So here is my beginning of responses.

Let's call your thoughts an equation for a second shall we?

There's a key variable missing from your equation

Unconditional Love

God unconditionally loves every man, woman, child and those yet to be born that he even now knows.

As well Tom I completely reject the idea of Unconditional Election and assert that God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Jesus. It is just impossible not to believe that people can't use their free will to accept or reject salvation. God does not control every action we make, our actions are our own. Our actions are like a fractal where it branches off into infinity. Our choices of free will are endless but God knows every single path we can take in our lives, and in conjuncture with the Holy spirit he urges us to take the right path but until we make our own decision the future is not laid in stone.

Like Jedi Master Yoda said, "Difficult to tell, the future is, always in motion, always changing." (possible paraphrase) God knows the past the present and every possible future.

God may have a love for all humanity and indeed for all of creation, but I do not believe it can be contended that there are different kinds of love dependent on the relation between God and man. As Kevin has said, it is clear that not all men are the children of God, and does not a father choose his child, and not the child his father?

And so one is forced to decide one of these three options:

1. God loves all people the same, the person chooses to come to salvation without God making His first move towards him.

2. God loves all people but not the same, God love some more than others and chooses them for salvation.

3. God loves only some people and does not love others, love is only possible once you are in relationship with God.

Because of the amount of scriptural support for election, God choosing a people for His own, God choosing His bride, I cannot accept option one because it places the first move towards salvation on the person and not God. Option three I cannot accept because there is clear examples in the Bible of God loving the world, His creation, desiring humanity to come to salvation, and so i cannot He only loves some and not others.

As unsettling an option that number 2 is, and despite how many questions it leaves to be answered, I am forced to explain God's love in such a way. It is impossible to believe it to be otherwise if you believe in election.

The only other option is the "we just don't understand option." This option is unsatisfactory usually but is most likely the case. As finite, sequential, human beings, we cannot understand an infinite extra-sequential, being.

So in short, option number 2 is my best human explanation, but I really think we just can't understand it.

---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 AM ----------

Tom i fear this is one of the anxiety problems you have that we both share. So for that I won't reassure you in this doubt you have. I will simply tell you to read John 3:16, and to leave it in God's hands. It is not your place to decide who goes to heaven or hell. We are the servants He is the master, HE said worry not, and yet we worry more than we should. Let's just call it quits, and give your mind a break

This has absolutely nothing to do with anxiety, it doesn't make me anxious at all. I know God love me and all His children, the question at hand is does He love everyone else?

[SigmaDelta]

In short:

God loves EVERYBODY. Unfortunately, He can't be with everybody because not everybody accepts Him.

[TeenLeaderTom]

In short:

God loves EVERYBODY. Unfortunately, He can't be with everybody because not everybody accepts Him.

yes...sort've.

We indeed aren't with Him because we don't accept Him, but we don't even have the ability to choose Him without His choosing us first.

You would probably pull from that belief then, "He can't be with everybody, because He doesn't accept everybody."

Now, I don't say "accept" in racial or cultural sense, as if God is racist in His grace. We must remember that without Christ He doesn't accept anyone because of our sinfulness.

Because He doesn't accept us because of our sinfulness, we must understand the position God is coming from. We are criminals. God is not only the judge of our crimes but He is also the one who we've wronged in our crimes. Because this is so, we cannot view salvation an opportunity to be grasped. Salvation is not an equal-opportunity offer as if it'd be unfair if a person didn't get a chance to hear the Gospel and come to salvation. Salvation is offered by God to the sinner. Now you would say that God is making this offer to everyone. I would say it's sufficient for all but only efficient for some. Why do I say that?

I say that because it's the Biblical truth.

If you look at a popular verse such as John 3:16, it is often touted as being in support of Arminianism. I do not believe this is so, let's have a look:

John 3:16

""For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

"

The key part of this that Arminians usually claim is in support of their doctrine is the part that say "That whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." The key word in that section being "Whoever." Arminians would like to define that as meaning "everyone." I would contend that a better synonym would be "anyone." It is true, anyone can come to Christ. A rich man, poor man, righteous man, murderous, African man, American man, anyone can come to Christ. This verse opens the Gospel from being just limited to Jews and recognizes that it is open to the Gentiles also. This all being said, it says nothing about whether man comes to believe out of His own accord or from the power of the Holy Spirit working upon his heart. This is a great verse, but it cannot be used in the argument.

Now lest I go on a strawman slaughtering spree, I will provide verses in support of God's choosing first.

Act 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,

Act 4:25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, [fn] said by the Holy Spirit, "'Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain?

Act 4:26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed' [fn]--

Act 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 1:5 he predestined us [fn] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand

Job 14:1 "Man who is born of a woman is few of days and full of trouble

Job 14:5 Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass,

Job 14:6 look away from him and leave him alone, that he may enjoy, like a hired hand, his day."

Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Psa 135:4 For the LORD has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession. (This verse is one of many verses speaking of Israel being chosen)

Jhn 13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' (this is speaking of Judas, take note however that Jesus mustn't be talking about choosing in the physical sense because He chose Judas as a disciple. He can only mean the spiritual)

Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

1Cr 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

1Cr 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.

Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

1Th 1:5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

1Pe 2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious,

1Pe 2:5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.

These verses are why I believe in Calvinism. I'm sure there are even more than I have listed which support it. The verse that use foreknew must be understood in the Biblical context. To "know" in the Bible means to love, not just to know in the sense of knowledge. We draw this from it's in a verse such as Genesis 4:1 which reads "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD." And even with those verses that have the word foreknew they are often combined with the word predestined. I find very curious that people claim that we choose God and yet we pray prayers such as "God I pray that Uncle Bill will get saved." In praying that prayer we recognize the sovereignty of God to bring people to salvation, so why then do we think it's all about the human choosing God and not Him choosing the human?

This is why I can only see option number 2, that God loves everyone but some more than others, as the best human explanation of something that is much greater than our understanding. I cannot understand how you can see option number 1 as the best explanation.

[randomdisplayname]

I've actually talked about this to someone and I've come to a slightly different conclusion.

God Hates Us

Now right now your mouse is going for that quick reply button. HOLD IT! Let me explain. God hates us because we are so engrained in sin. We DESERVE God's Wrath. But because of what Jesus did, God, through Jesus, loves every single one of us.

Tom you seem to be leaving the fact that Jesus is our intermediary out of the equation. Now you might be thinking, "well wait, he just agreed with me."

Nope.

The Trinity comes into play here. Remember Jesus is 100% God.

[opalecent]

TLT, I think you've oversimplified the options to merely 3. If you're forced to choose between those three options, then logic leads to the second. But I don't think you've covered all possible options. What about the possibility that God reaches out to all men, but man is free to reject Him? That He has offered salvation to all men, but people can choose otherwise? He "desires that all people be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" but some men just... don't.

[TeenLeaderTom]

I've actually talked about this to someone and I've come to a slightly different conclusion.

God Hates Us

Now right now your mouse is going for that quick reply button. HOLD IT! Let me explain. God hates us because we are so engrained in sin. We DESERVE God's Wrath. But because of what Jesus did, God, through Jesus, loves every single one of us.

Tom you seem to be leaving the fact that Jesus is our intermediary out of the equation. Now you might be thinking, "well wait, he just agreed with me."

Nope.

The Trinity comes into play here. Remember Jesus is 100% God.

Disagreed. God loves all of us, but He is just so He must punish sin. The solution for this is found in the person of Jesus Christ who satisfies God's wrath against the elect. God love everyone, but loves the elect more. You pit Jesus against God as they are enemies, and like Jesus is saving us from the big mean guy.

---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------

TLT, I think you've oversimplified the options to merely 3. If you're forced to choose between those three options, then logic leads to the second. But I don't think you've covered all possible options. What about the possibility that God reaches out to all men, but man is free to reject Him? That He has offered salvation to all men, but people can choose otherwise? He "desires that all people be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" but some men just... don't.

Your extra option is actually option number one, perhaps you misunderstood it. Option number 1 is that God loves everyone and they choose him. That's basically the Arminian argument. I can't accept it because of the Biblical evidence for election.

[randomdisplayname]

Disagreed. God loves all of us, but He is just so He must punish sin.

I wasn't saying he doesn't want to love us. But since we are in Sin, he can't. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. In a sense Jesus is saving us from God, but because we deserve it! If it weren't for Jesus we would face the entire wrath of God.

[Linz]

Hey Tom!

It is very important that we let the scripture speak for itself without us forcing it into our current beliefs, I've got some for you to think about I'm sure both of us would agree that scripture is most worthwhile in reading, so I limited my words and loaded this response with God's words!

Yet I suddenly realized that I couldn't say that with certainty because I do not know who God loves and does not love and who he chooses for salvation.....

Psalm 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;

you hate all evildoers.

6 You destroy those who speak lies;

the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

one argument ... that election would be "like God as a father choosing only to save some of His children and letting the rest die." Sounds quite brutal and unloving.

1 John 3:4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

(By the way, brother is best understood here as fellow believer, not physical family)

But if I am wrong, and then what? Does God save all the children? And if the children represent all people, then does God save all people? Do we then affirm universalism?

Revelation 21:6And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

I've heard that man's free will and God's sovereignty is an antinomy, but I don't really believe that at all. I have come to an understanding of how the two are compatible. What is truly an antimony is how God loves everyone yet He only chooses some for salvation. I would quickly turn to arminianism if not for the great amount of Biblical proof supporting election and predestination. I cannot deny the evidence is there. And so it is left to either accept God's love as an antinomy, or to come to a suitable explanation for how God can love all men, and yet choose only some for salvation. That is of course unless God doesn't love all mankind.......

Matthew 5:43"“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

The above passage shows the amazingly gracious kindness (which some may call love) that God shows to all people, both believer and unbeliever.

The real question is, is there anything lovable about humanity?

Romans 3:“None is righteous, no, not one;

11 no one understands;

no one seeks for God.

12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;

no one does good,

not even one.”

13 “Their throat is an open grave;

they use their tongues to deceive.”

“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16 in their paths are ruin and misery,

17 and the way of peace they have not known.”

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

That has shown that every mouth is stopped before God, and no one can work their way to Him.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Both you and I were born hating God.

Romans 4:20No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Romans 5:6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Who is "we"? Paul writes a letter to the church at Rome, and refers to both the recipients and himself as "we", who is the letter addressed to? (we must check the beginning )

Romans 1:1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,

7To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

From all the above passages, we know now that there is a kindness shown to all, and a saving love shown to God's people. We also know that those who live in a practice of sinning are still a child of the devil, not a child of God (1 John 3) (Rom 1 God our (believers) Father) and they are heading to the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8) as those who turn from sin (1 John 3) and have faith in Him (Romans 4) are "saved by him (Jesus Christ) from the wrath of God" (Romans 5).

How great is the love of Jesus Christ for His own!

[bobb4jesus]

Well the title is my hook, but I am no longer quite sure whether I believe that or not. Though I recognize this is not objective in any way and I could just be wrong, I saw a woman at the gas station and I just felt like walking up to her and telling her, "God loves you." Yet I suddenly realized that I couldn't say that with certainty because I do not know who God loves and does not love and who he chooses for salvation.....

So greatly did this weigh upon my mind, that I can no longer hold with certainty my previous explanation about God's love, but that goes with saying that I still believe in Calvinism.

As I was driving my car home, I began thinking about things spoken about in the debate on Calvinism and one argument came to mind that was thrown my way saying that election would be "like God as a father choosing only to save some of His children and letting the rest die." Sounds quite brutal and unloving. But if I am wrong, and then what? Does God save all the children? And if the children represent all people, then does God save all people? Do we then affirm universalism?

There is clearly a problem here.

I've heard that man's free will and God's sovereignty is an antinomy, but I don't really believe that at all. I have come to an understanding of how the two are compatible. What is truly an antimony is how God loves everyone yet He only chooses some for salvation. I would quickly turn to arminianism if not for the great amount of Biblical proof supporting election and predestination. I cannot deny the evidence is there. And so it is left to either accept God's love as an antinomy, or to come to a suitable explanation for how God can love all men, and yet choose only some for salvation. That is of course unless God doesn't love all mankind.......

I have more thoughts but I await your inputs first.

edit: word is antinomy, not antimony

The problem with your theory is thus: saying that God loves everyone (Arminianism) is not the same as saying that all will be saved regardless of faith in God (Universalism). Arminianism states that God freely offers the gift of salvation to all who will accept Christ's sacrifice on the cross and acknowledge Him as the Son of God. Universalism states that God will not send anyone to hell, indeed that His mercy and love will overrule His justice and perfect holiness. Calvinism states that God has CHOSEN who would be saved and allowed only them to believe.

As for your statement "I would quickly turn to arminianism if not for the great amount of Biblical proof supporting election and predestination." I'll need to research that some more.

[✟ Keep.Your.Head.Up ✟]

Reason: Our sins.

[Jordan]

bobb4jesus, I believe in universalism but wouldn't describe it as you do. I believe when God is lifted up He will draw all men to Him, and His love will transform all, even the worst of sinners. I don't believe it overrides his justice or holiness. And yes, I do believe God loves everyone, and if He loves them, He will not abandon them.

[colinisreptar]

bobb4jesus, I believe in universalism but wouldn't describe it as you do. I believe when God is lifted up He will draw all men to Him, and His love will transform all, even the worst of sinners. I don't believe it overrides his justice or holiness. And yes, I do believe God loves everyone, and if He loves them, He will not abandon them.

I believe God loves everyone, too. I just think He condemns sinners who commit cosmic treason and are not covered in the blood of the Holy Lamb, Jesus.