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TeenLeaderTom

God Doesn't Love Everyone

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Your still accepting that dogma as truth. It is still your view or belief that dogma is correct and true. Who established it or how many hold to it is irrelevant when it comes to your personal convictions on the matter. So what is the disagreement with my statement then? It is your view of Christian doctrine, like many others who hold similarly. I'm not sure why your disagreeing with my statement.

I'm not gonna throw any word like dogma or heresy around, but I do kinda wonder as well how you came to your conclusion. It's certainly is an attractive proposition, that all should be saved, but I'm more concerned with what God has to say on it. You recognize the Bible as the word of God, correct?

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My point was, that you are espousing the idea as if it is commonly believed, then asserting that you have read the Gospels. Again, if you want to believe it, you can, I cannot stop you. If anything, I am curious as to how you came to that conclusion.

How was I espousing the idea that it was commonly believed? My original comment had little to do with the idea that God will save everyone but was used to highlight how different some of us come to our conclusions about God's love, justice, and how they interact.

I'm not gonna throw any word like dogma or heresy around, but I do kinda wonder as well how you came to your conclusion. It's certainly is an attractive proposition, that all should be saved, but I'm more concerned with what God has to say on it. You recognize the Bible as the word of God, correct?

This probably isn't the thread for that discussion. I'm not sure we'd agree on what the word of God means. :)

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This probably isn't the thread for that discussion. I'm not sure we'd agree on what the word of God means. :)

Don't worry about it, you pretty much answered my question. See I've never met someone who actually believes that everyone goes to heaven and puts weight in the Bible as the word of God. Not that there aren't any, but I'd love to see the argument that someone like that would present.

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Don't worry about it, you pretty much answered my question. See I've never met someone who actually believes that everyone goes to heaven and puts weight in the Bible as the word of God. Not that there aren't any, but I'd love to see the argument that someone like that would present.

It's not that I don't put weight in the Bible, but I also put weight into other writings as well. The Word of God is much more to me than the collection of writings in our Bibles today.

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It's not that I don't put weight in the Bible, but I also put weight into other writings as well. The Word of God is much more to me than the collection of writings in our Bibles today.

Sure. But the Bible is the one place we can look to know that we are looking at 100% truth. Anything else, I can have my doubts about.

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Jordan, I'm curious as to how you take the belief that God will save everyone and support that with the Bible. Particularly in reading books like Revelations. Personally I would love for God to save everyone, and He might if you take into account the spot in Revelations when John is not allowed to write down the events that are taking place so I accept and hope that everyone will be saved since I don't know everything that's going to happen come Armageddon. But as for what's written in the Bible now that I've seen I find no evidence showing that everyone will be saved although I believe God loves everyone. If you can dispute this please go for it, I'd love to hear about it.

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This isn't the thread for that discussion, I probably should have used another example to avoid derailing this thread. But, Revelations doesn't specify what happens to the lost after Revelations 20 and in Revelations 21 we see it opening up with this new heaven and earth, free of pain, death, and mourning, and personally I don't see how people could be in hell with that statement, nor how could sin be completely ridden of if there are a large group of people suffering for their sins. It actually seems to support the idea of Total Reconciliation to me, that sin and its effects would be no more. I also look at passages like the shepherd who goes after even one lost sheep until all 100 are safe. Perhaps sometime we'll have to start another thread on Universalism (although I call it Total Reconciliation) and discuss it. It seems many here agree that God loves everyone, but what affect that has on us we may differ on. :)

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This isn't the thread for that discussion, I probably should have used another example to avoid derailing this thread. But, Revelations doesn't specify what happens to the lost after Revelations 20 and in Revelations 21 we see it opening up with this new heaven and earth, free of pain, death, and mourning, and personally I don't see how people could be in hell with that statement, nor how could sin be completely ridden of if there are a large group of people suffering for their sins. It actually seems to support the idea of Total Reconciliation to me, that sin and its effects would be no more. I also look at passages like the shepherd who goes after even one lost sheep until all 100 are safe. Perhaps sometime we'll have to start another thread on Universalism (although I call it Total Reconciliation) and discuss it. It seems many here agree that God loves everyone, but what affect that has on us we may differ on. :)

Your probably right in that it is worthy of an entire thread of its own, but I'm going to try to respond briefly to what you just said:

You mentioned sheep, which leads me right into this parable, which I think totally destroys the Universalism theory:

Matthew 25:31-46

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels

with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will

separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates

the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right

and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you

who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom

prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was

hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you

gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited

me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and

you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see

you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to

drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or

needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or

in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did

for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you

who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and

his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat,

I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger

and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not

clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or

thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison,

and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do

for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous

to eternal life."

So your sheep analogy really doesn't hold any water. The shepherd will go search for his sheep, his chosen people, but not a goat.

And how do you explain away vs. 46? Is that not really a part of scripture, or what? Also, please read some commentary on that verse, maybe your confused on the implications of the verse?

http://biblecommenter.com/matthew/25-46.htm

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Your probably right in that it is worthy of an entire thread of its own, but I'm going to try to respond briefly to what you just said:

You mentioned sheep, which leads me right into this parable, which I think totally destroys the Universalism theory:

Matthew 25:31-46...So your sheep analogy really doesn't hold any water. The shepherd will go search for his sheep, his chosen people, but not a goat.

And how do you explain away vs. 46? Is that not really a part of scripture, or what? Also, please read some commentary on that verse, maybe your confused on the implications of the verse?

http://biblecommenter.com/matthew/25-46.htm

I'm well aware of the popular interpretations of that passage and the idea of sheep and goats being separate, but I'm going to decline to go any further into discussing this in this thread. :)

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I'm well aware of the popular interpretations of that passage and the idea of sheep and goats being separate, but I'm going to decline to go any further into discussing this in this thread. :)

I can respect that, but I really just don't see how that is an interpretation. It clearly states "they will go away to eternal punishment". That's straight up text, no interpretations needed. I can understand the desire of believing that all are saved, I'm just trying to be realistic. Would you be willing to debate on it in a separate thread if I made one?

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I can respect that, but I really just don't see how that is an interpretation. It clearly states "they will go away to eternal punishment". That's straight up text, no interpretations needed. I can understand the desire of believing that all are saved, I'm just trying to be realistic. Would you be willing to debate on it in a separate thread if I made one?

Probably not in the near future as I'm fairly busy and the holiday season is nearing, as with many minority views discussions about Universalism always tend to be 1-3 debating with 10+ people and the sheer volume of posts and points needing to be covered and adequately responded to is very time consuming and usually ends up being really frustrating and mostly unproductive in the end. I don't have that kind of time or energy on my hands right now, if you really want to understand Universalism there is plenty of information you can find online, the tentmaker.org comes to mind immediately but there are other places you can google and read about it.

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I totally agree with what @rockforGod said. God loves everybody according to John 3:16. He sent His only begotten Son aka a member of the Holy Trinity in the form of a man to die for our sins and redeem us from the powers of Hell. If God didn't love everybody He would have sent Jesus to a group of people which would most likely be the Israelites because He called them His chosen people.

Unfortunately, not everybody loves God the way he wants us to love Him. And because of this, they will go to hell. If you don't love God you cannot obey His commandments. Yes, He does know beforehand those who will turn to Him but He doesn't make them do this. The same way he doesn't make unbelievers choose not to believe in Him. Romans 5:8 says "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." It is now left to everyone to choose what to do, which way to go. It's the freewill he has blessed us with.

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Probably not in the near future as I'm fairly busy and the holiday season is nearing, as with many minority views discussions about Universalism always tend to be 1-3 debating with 10+ people and the sheer volume of posts and points needing to be covered and adequately responded to is very time consuming and usually ends up being really frustrating and mostly unproductive in the end. I don't have that kind of time or energy on my hands right now, if you really want to understand Universalism there is plenty of information you can find online, the tentmaker.org comes to mind immediately but there are other places you can google and read about it.

Ok, I'll check that site out. I can understand you not wanting to be ganged up on. Maybe I'll end up messaging you if I can't find anything, but I'll definitely look into some of the universalism arguments first.

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Guest JAG
Certainly have JAG! :)

Just glossed over the 10s of times Jesus said to the contrary?

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Just glossed over the 10s of times Jesus said to the contrary?

Zero interest in discussing anything with you JAG, have a good evening.

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Guest JAG
Zero interest in discussing anything with you JAG, have a good evening.

That's the most honest answer you've given in this thread yet. I appreciate it.

- James

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As far as I know, God has proved His love for all whether he is a partaker of God's salvation or not

Well, God loves everyone, but not equally. If God loved all equally, then all would come to salvation. He would make all the blind see so that they could accept the truth of the Gospel.

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Well, God loves everyone, but not equally. If God loved all equally, then all would come to salvation. He would make all the blind see so that they could accept the truth of the Gospel.

Well, yeah that's the sad part but if anyone believe in God and be baptized and have faith in Him then it's not possible for anyone to be saved. This is the plan of God and we must be thankful for we are chosen to be partakers of His Salvation.

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Well, God loves everyone, but not equally. If God loved all equally, then all would come to salvation. He would make all the blind see so that they could accept the truth of the Gospel.

So you are saying that it is not possible for God to love everyone equally and still have non-believers?

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God does love everyone in a sense, but He does not love everyone salvifically.

Romans 9:13 is clear that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. This means that He chose Jacob, and chose against Esau. In Romans 8, we are told that those whom God foreleved He also predestined, and these are the same people (only) who are effacaciously called, justified and glorified... the elect. So, God only salvifically loves the elect.

But at the same time, God does have a love for all men (Matthew 5). He sends the rain to fall and the sun to shine on the elect and the non-elect, and He still loves them as people in His image. But this love is not salvific.

God commands us to obey are parents in the 5th commandment, yet he also tells us to hate our mother and our father. This is not a contradiction likewise.

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well it is a gruesome death, burned alive, i guess its the final punishment for ytheir sins before they die

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I'm with Jonathan on this. Obviously God loves all people in some way. He sends rain on the just and the unjust. He gives everyone grace and mercy just by letting them live and enjoy at least a few fleeting pleasures. He blesses people with many pleasures that they in no way deserve. But this is not a saving love. The only people who experience salvific love are the elect, who the Bible makes quite clear are loved with a great and special love. The love God has for His own children is exponentially more powerful than His common grace, but in the sense of common grace He does still love all.

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