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Pedestination or Free Will

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Guest JAG

I believe that certain points in time are fixed and unchangeable but most of time is flexible and can change.

 

Did you get your belief on predestination from Dr. Who?  :ohmy:

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Did you get your belief on predestination from Dr. Who?  :ohmy:

"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey... stuff."

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Guest Mike Spero

God gives all man an equal chance at Salvation, yes. God intervenes when He deems in His righteousness He may/must, yes. Does God create our destination, which would mean He also creates our sin? Or does He simply know all that is to pass and know what each man will choose? I believe the answer is obvious.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

In layman's terms: "The Lord is not failing to keep his promise to us, as men will do, but is always keeping it: as He wishes that no one shall perish [in Hell] but that all shall come to repentance."

Either God is a schizophrenic who wants no man to go to Hell but destines us for hell; and who abhors evil yet also creates it (which would be a God not worthy of worship at all), or is the utterly hapless in controlling His omnipotence.

 

Sorry to be so contrite in my dismissal of this but:

Predestination = Scripture on God's will and being is false, and God is sick and establishes evil/creates some just to be Damned

So: Predestination = Fallacy

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God gives all man an equal chance at Salvation, yes. God intervenes when He deems in His righteousness He may/must, yes. Does God create our destination, which would mean He also creates our sin? Or does He simply know all that is to pass and know what each man will choose? I believe the answer is obvious.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

In layman's terms: "The Lord is not failing to keep his promise to us, as men will do, but is always keeping it: as He wishes that no one shall perish [in Hell] but that all shall come to repentance."

Either God is a schizophrenic who wants no man to go to Hell but destines us for hell; and who abhors evil yet also creates it (which would be a God not worthy of worship at all), or is the utterly hapless in controlling His omnipotence.

 

Sorry to be so contrite in my dismissal of this but:

Predestination = Scripture on God's will and being is false, and God is sick and establishes evil/creates some just to be Damned

So: Predestination = Fallacy

If we're taking such cheap shots, I could just as easily say:

Rejecting predestination = Explicit Scripture on predestination and foreordination is false, and God is impotent and helpless to save everyone He tries to save, and fails at His goal to save everyone.

So: Rejecting predestination = fallacy.

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Guest Mike Spero

If we're taking such cheap shots, I could just as easily say:

Rejecting predestination = Explicit Scripture on predestination and foreordination is false, and God is impotent and helpless to save everyone He tries to save, and fails at His goal to save everyone.

So: Rejecting predestination = fallacy.

Though I believe I could refute that accurately... I'd rather not as I clearly understand its purpose

Well-played good sir, well-played indeed ^.^

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He determines the destination but the way we get there is up to us. We can change any aspect about the journey but the destination will always be set in stone.

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He determines the destination but the way we get there is up to us. We can change any aspect about the journey but the destination will always be set in stone.

That's more like fatalism.

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That's more like fatalism.

 

Well not really. That is predestination. Where everything that happens is set in stone. What I'm saying is that you have free will to make any choice you want but certain things will happen no matter what choice you make.

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I guess I believe something roughly like this:

 

1. That God has made me such that I know Him dimly in my deepest parts so that I cannot deny that He is worthy and that I am guilty insofar as I fail to meet His law.

 

2. Yet I am so constituted that it is impossible for me to live in Him absent the grace brought about by Christ's sacrifice, because I am guilty of Adam's original sin, and so I am convicted by God's law and made worthy of death.

 

3. Baptism restores me by grace, making me free because from then on I can choose the one law in principle of which I am created and have being and life, which is the law of the Spirit in me. (And if I choose this law, then I am truly free. True freedom of this kind is not the freedom to do as I please, but the freedom to be autonomous in Christ--that is, subject only to my own law, through Him in me.)

 

4. While Baptism sets me free in a negative sense, nevertheless the positive acceptance of the free gift of grace depends on a movement of my will, that I accept the Spirit's work in me and do not reject it. For I am composed of both flesh and spirit, and insofar as the Spirit tries to work in me, still there is a part of my old nature that resists; and if I so choose, my spirit may surrender to the flesh, and thereby I sin. (In this sense, I do have the traditional idea of freedom, which is to say I am free precisely insofar as I have the "freedom" to choose the sinful over the blessed.)

 

However, 4 presents the problem of indeterminacy. Wherever the Spirit says "go," and I can say "yes Lord" or "no," there is a curious point at which there is something unknown--a mystery as to what God foresees, and what is possible in me. I believe that I make a free choice on some level; I don't think I could incur guilt otherwise. But I don't know how that choice takes place, or what its consequences are in terms of God's providential plan.

 

I no longer really speculate about how free I am to determine the accidents of my life, e.g. whom I marry if I marry, how much happiness my life will contain, etc.

That was precise.

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Guest Mike Spero

He determines the destination but the way we get there is up to us. We can change any aspect about the journey but the destination will always be set in stone.

God says in the Bible that He tempts no man to evil, nor does He wish "any man would perish in Hell". So is God contradicting Himself now? Do we really serve such a lowly tyrant that He would create someone just aching to send him or her to an eternal damnation? That's no Deity I would serve. And also, why would He die for the sins of all mankind if He made most of us to reject His forgiveness?

 

And finally, would you serve a tyrant who might have determined when He made your spouse or child that said being would pay eternally, without any will of their own? Would you serve a monster who would so readily toss someone close to you into existence so that they can perish without any of their own will being taken into account? If God creates us to perish for sin, then that God Himself has made sin. That God is evil, and would punish His children without them having any say in it. That there, is an abusive father, on an eternal scale.

 

Would you really serve someone such as that?

Edited by Mike Spero

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Alright, Mikey, you've brought out the Calvinist beast within, and I shall begin to respond in swift defense to what I am still mostly convinced is the Biblical doctrine of predestination. (Also, remember that Auren doesn't believe anyone is going to Hell, so no one would be predestined there in her view.)

 

God says in the Bible that He tempts no man to evil

Calvinists agree with this. God plans out cause and effect. He doesn't jump in and tempt people.

nor does He wish "any man would perish in Hell".

Yet some do. Why? Obviously, some other priority is keeping Him from saving everyone. Is it respect for free will or an inscrutable sovereign plan? The Biblical testimony seems to go towards the latter.

Do we really serve such a lowly tyrant that He would create someone just aching to send him or her to an eternal damnation?

Well, "And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?" (Romans 9:22) And don't imagine this is for no reason. "And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory?" (Romans 9:23)

That's no Deity I would serve.

Why not? Would not God be God and Lord even if were (not that He would be in this case) an arrogant beast?

And also, why would He die for the sins of all mankind if He made most of us to reject His forgiveness?

A blank check's a blank check, no matter how much it gets filled in for.

 

And finally, would you serve a tyrant who might have determined when He made your spouse or child that said being would pay eternally, without any will of their own? Would you serve a monster who would so readily toss someone close to you into existence so that they can perish without any of their own will being taken into account? If God creates us to perish for sin, then that God Himself has made sin. That God is evil, and would punish His children without them having any say in it. That there, is an abusive father, on an eternal scale.

None of this is accurate. People sin of their own will, not a free will but one broken because of original sin. We're so spoiled in our souls at birth, our nature so sickened by sin, that we use our own wills to reject God. God is simply the author way behind the scenes, who jumps in at the last minute to save a few people out of sheer grace.

And regarding "God Himself has made sin," I could argue that you also believe this, because you believe sin came from free will, which God made Himself.

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Guest Mike Spero

Alright, Mikey, you've brought out the Calvinist beast within, and I shall begin to respond in swift defense to what I am still mostly convinced is the Biblical doctrine of predestination. (Also, remember that Auren doesn't believe anyone is going to Hell, so no one would be predestined there in her view.)

 

Calvinists agree with this. God plans out cause and effect. He doesn't jump in and tempt people.

Yet some do. Why? Obviously, some other priority is keeping Him from saving everyone. Is it respect for free will or an inscrutable sovereign plan? The Biblical testimony seems to go towards the latter.

Well, "And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?" (Romans 9:22) And don't imagine this is for no reason. "And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory?" (Romans 9:23)

Why not? Would not God be God and Lord even if were (not that He would be in this case) an arrogant beast?

A blank check's a blank check, no matter how much it gets filled in for.

 

None of this is accurate. People sin of their own will, not a free will but one broken because of original sin. We're so spoiled in our souls at birth, our nature so sickened by sin, that we use our own wills to reject God. God is simply the author way behind the scenes, who jumps in at the last minute to save a few people out of sheer grace.

And regarding "God Himself has made sin," I could argue that you also believe this, because you believe sin came from free will, which God made Himself.

I still don't see your point, honestly. How could you trust in the "inscrutable" plan of a God who has all the power in the world, yet still plans to send His own children to damnation, as well as put their lives on that path with no responsibility of their own in the matter? And no, an arrogant beast is not a God I would serve, whether He was truly God or not.

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Hey now...come on. The Calvinist view of God isn't that bad. 

 

I mean yes, hyper-calvinism is a drag, but I am pretty sure Nicene Nerd isn't one. 

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I would prefer it if you would respond to individual points I've made and not make your next statement as if you ignored them. I would also like to hear your interpretation of Romans 9:22-23.

I still don't see your point, honestly. How could you trust in the "inscrutable" plan of a God who has all the power in the world, yet still plans to send His own children to damnation,

I could ask you the same question, since in your view God still has all the power in the world, but determines to leave people to damnation because...um...something about free will, which is totally in Scripture everywhere. But God can't just overrule free will to save people's souls without ruining love because reasons.

as well as put their lives on that path with no responsibility of their own in the matter?

Every Calvinist believes in personal responsibility.

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None of this is accurate. People sin of their own will, not a free will but one broken because of original sin. We're so spoiled in our souls at birth, our nature so sickened by sin, that we use our own wills to reject God. God is simply the author way behind the scenes, who jumps in at the last minute to save a few people out of sheer grace.

And regarding "God Himself has made sin," I could argue that you also believe this, because you believe sin came from free will, which God made Himself.

Those two statements contradict one another. You're saying people sin of their own will, but yet people were created to sin. God then is punishing man for doing something he was created and can't help but to do. It's like punishing an animal for acting like an animal when it has no choice because by nature it is one.

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Guest Mike Spero

I would prefer it if you would respond to individual points I've made and not make your next statement as if you ignored them. I would also like to hear your interpretation of Romans 9:22-23.

I could ask you the same question, since in your view God still has all the power in the world, but determines to leave people to damnation because...um...something about free will, which is totally in Scripture everywhere. But God can't just overrule free will to save people's souls without ruining love because reasons.

Every Calvinist believes in personal responsibility.

Sorry, I often rush my replies and tend not to address each point. I will this time

 

For one, Romans 19:22 begins with "What if" in the original KJV translation, and ends with a question mark. I feel that defeats any point in me taking it as evidence as the Bible is filled with much questioning. When Job was "what if"-ing God in his lament, was that God's way of telling us He doesn't care for us; or simply a human man proposing a question? To take that at face value would be to take me hypothetically saying "What if there is no God?" and using that as proof against His existence.

 

God allowing free will is in fact: "totally in Scripture everywhere". There are numerous verses where God and the apostles command mankind to repent, be Baptised, keep from sin, etc. etc. Those verses are EVERYWHERE. If God determines our paths and destination before we are even born, for us, then what is the point of emphasizing choice and faith and such all throughout Scripture? If God has us all on strings, why tell us how to behave when we have no choice in the matter? God cannot infringe upon our free will the majority of the time, not "because reasons" but for the same obvious reason we can't throw our five year old children into a prison cell because we know they'll "do wrong."

 

This article sums up my beliefs well: http://people.cis.ksu.edu/~bbp9857/calvinism.html

 

 

Those two statements contradict one another. You're saying people sin of their own will, but yet people were created to sin. God then is punishing man for doing something he was created and can't help but to do. It's like punishing an animal for acting like an animal when it has no choice because by nature it is one.

Excellent point :3

Edited by Mike Spero

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Those two statements contradict one another. You're saying people sin of their own will, but yet people were created to sin. God then is punishing man for doing something he was created and can't help but to do. It's like punishing an animal for acting like an animal when it has no choice because by nature it is one.

 

So you're saying we aren't born with a sinful nature?

 

Sorry, I often rush my replies and tend not to address each point. I will this time

 

For one, Romans 19:22 begins with "What if" in the original KJV translation, and ends with a question mark. I feel that defeats any point in me taking it as evidence as the Bible is filled with much questioning. When Job was "what if"-ing God in his lament, was that God's way of telling us He doesn't care for us; or simply a human man proposing a question? To take that at face value would be to take me hypothetically saying "What if there is no God?" and using that as proof against His existence.

"Original KJV translation?" What are you talking about? Anyway, Paul was using this as an argument, so I think the question is certainly rhetorical, meant to be answered, "Indeed, He has!"

 

God allowing free will is in fact: "totally in Scripture everywhere". There are numerous verses where God and the apostles command mankind to repent, be Baptised, keep from sin, etc. etc. Those verses are EVERYWHERE. If God determines our paths and destination before we are even born, for us, then what is the point of emphasizing choice and faith and such all throughout Scripture? If God has us all on strings, why tell us how to behave when we have no choice in the matter?

Calvinists believe in choice and faith. The question is how those things work. How do commands prove that our choices can't be real if they are predetermined?

God cannot infringe upon our free will the majority of the time, not "because reasons" but for the same obvious reason we can't throw our five year old children into a prison cell because we know they'll "do wrong."

That's the wrong analogy. If we're in danger, why wouldn't God ignore free will to save us? If a kid was standing in front of a coming truck and didn't will to move, wouldn't a good father save him anyway?

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So you're saying we aren't born with a sinful nature?

 

No. I am saying it is self contradicting to say that because of the sin nature a person will and must sin, but at the same time say it is their free will to do such.

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No. I am saying it is self contradicting to say that because of the sin nature a person will and must sin, but at the same time say it is their free will to do such.

I never said their will was free, only that it was their own. Which it is. Biblically, our pre-salvation will is not free but a slave of sin. If you're a sinner deep inside, that's bad and doesn't somehow excuse you from sinning. Imagine in court: "It's not his fault he did evil, judge. He is just an evil person and can't help it!" Being sinful is itself sinful

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Guest Mike Spero

I truly don't see the purpose between arguing either side further. Predestination VS Free Will is a debate that has been raging for how many hundreds of years now? Both sides have their evidences and points, and I highly doubt getting into debate with one another will suddenly end the dispute and make the metaphoric light-bulb pop into your opponents head; followed by an instant: "Oh! I understand it now!"

 

Both sides have made their arguments, further continuing this debate is entirely inconsequential

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I truly don't see the purpose between arguing either side further. Predestination VS Free Will is a debate that has been raging for how many hundreds of years now? Both sides have their evidences and points, and I highly doubt getting into debate with one another will suddenly end the dispute and make the metaphoric light-bulb pop into your opponents head; followed by an instant: "Oh! I understand it now!"

Both sides have made their arguments, further continuing this debate is entirely inconsequential

The pursuit of truth is never pointless. How will we learn and grow lest we discuss difficult matters?

(Also, I'm totally taking this as, "Oh no, Caleb is already winning, so I better quit now before he totally pwns me!" ;-p )

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Guest Mike Spero

The pursuit of truth is never pointless. How will we learn and grow lest we discuss difficult matters?

(Also, I'm totally taking this as, "Oh no, Caleb is already winning, so I better quit now before he totally pwns me!" ;-p )

Haha x3

Iin all honesty I said that cause I'm so drained from all these debates lately: I was actually trying to find a clever way to cop out of this one like a gentlemen and get some rest TT.TT

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Alright, Mikey, you've brought out the Calvinist beast within, and I shall begin to respond in swift defense to what I am still mostly convinced is the Biblical doctrine of predestination. (Also, remember that Auren doesn't believe anyone is going to Hell, so no one would be predestined there in her view.)

 

I'm a he thank you very much. Also a capybara.

Edited by Auren

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Guest Mike Spero

I'm a he thank you very much. Also a capybara.

I know, it bugged me when he called you "she" too. Serious Caleb, get your genders right girl xp

 

And to throw this further off topic, how are you a Capybara??

Edited by Mike Spero

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I know, it bugged me when he called you "she" too. Serious Caleb, get your genders right girl xp

 

And to throw this further off topic, how are you a Capybara??

 

My profile pic is a selfie of me swimming. obvi

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