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SaintPeter

Transgender 10-Year-Old, Jackie, Born A Boy, Happier As A Girl

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For starters, that gender identity disorder bears any similarity to drinking and taking drugs. "It's evil because I said so!"

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The "impressivity" is not limited to this post, but here:

What causes someone to want to change their gender because they are unhappy with the way they were born? It's not something they were "born" with, it's part of the society we live in.

Unsupported.

The same kind of society that causes kids to start doing drugs, drinking, and committing other immoral acts.

Unsupported.

The Devil has a grip on society, and people do all kinds of things that are wrong, but they are totally OK with it.

Unsupportable.

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Why is this controversial news? It doesn't appear to be that the parents are forcing Jackie to be a girl...

Granted, there may be neurological differences between men and women, which are reflected in transgendered individuals - however, I should imagine that there will then be transgendered individuals with a brain-sex the same as their physical-sex, which will be a truly interesting test case. Almost as interesting as a genderless nursery, to observe the results.

I, personally, don't have a problem with this - or with delaying Jackies puberty until they are older - as long as no lasting changes are made prior to them reaching an age at which they can better make the choice, at which point Jackie may prefer to be a man. Or a woman.

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Why is this controversial news? It doesn't appear to be that the parents are forcing Jackie to be a girl...

Granted, there may be neurological differences between men and women, which are reflected in transgendered individuals - however, I should imagine that there will then be transgendered individuals with a brain-sex the same as their physical-sex, which will be a truly interesting test case. Almost as interesting as a genderless nursery, to observe the results.

I, personally, don't have a problem with this - or with delaying Jackies puberty until they are older - as long as no lasting changes are made prior to them reaching an age at which they can better make the choice, at which point Jackie may prefer to be a man. Or a woman.

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I am learning about transgendered folks in Sociology. I admit my understanding for them has increased. For one we learned that most transvestite men are STRAIGHT. Contrary to public opinion, most gay men are not like 'women,' and not all straight men are '100 percent macho.' Would I let my kids wear a dress if they were guys? No. But I wouldn't be a jerk about it. However, if an adult chooses to be of another gender, who are we to stop them. I mean think about how hard it is being born with a conflicting gender. It is not enough to tell someone "Oh you were born that way, deal with it." No, maybe God made them with the personality of another gender, and that's okay. People are literally born with two parts on occasion. Society calls you a mistake, God calls you an individual.

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However, if an adult chooses to be of another gender, who are we to stop them. I mean think about how hard it is being born with a conflicting gender. It is not enough to tell someone "Oh you were born that way, deal with it." No, maybe God made them with the personality of another gender, and that's okay. People are literally born with two parts on occasion. Society calls you a mistake, God calls you an individual.

^ QFT.

You cannot change someone, why try to? (Well okay, you CAN try and change them... But it's hard as heck to. So why bother...?)

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I am learning about transgendered folks in Sociology. I admit my understanding for them has increased. For one we learned that most transvestite men are STRAIGHT. Contrary to public opinion, most gay men are not like 'women,' and not all straight men are '100 percent macho.'

First - I believe you are talking about transgender individuals, NOT transvestite. Difference: trans people identify as a different gender than they were born as. Transvestites just like to dress like the gender they don't identify as.

Trans people can be straight, gay, bisexual, etc. etc. Sexual attraction is independent of gender identity.

Would I let my kids wear a dress if they were guys? No. But I wouldn't be a jerk about it.

Don't you think you're being a jerk for not allowing your kid reasonable personal expression? Your male child wearing a dress does not harm anyone. It doesn't ruin their psyche, doesn't make them gay -- it doesn't even make them trans. It's just a dress. Why are you so personally invested in the clothing choices your child makes when they do not expose or sexualise their body?

However, if an adult chooses to be of another gender, who are we to stop them. I mean think about how hard it is being born with a conflicting gender. It is not enough to tell someone "Oh you were born that way, deal with it." No, maybe God made them with the personality of another gender, and that's okay. People are literally born with two parts on occasion. Society calls you a mistake, God calls you an individual.

"if an adult chooses to be of another gender".... no. They don't choose. They are. They may change their gender expression to make the outside look more like how they feel on the inside (surgery, dress etc.) - but they aren't "choosing" to be another gender.

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Sorry if someone already said this, but gender and sex are not the same.

Sex is determined by chromosomes, generally XX (female) or XY (male). There are some cases where there can be XXY or XYY in which case the person is technically not either sex though they usually show up as visually male/female. Then there are intersexed people which were born with different body parts. This is sometimes due to hormone unbalances, sometimes due to chromosome abnormalities. These people are also neither male nor female.

Gender is socially constructed and is therefore not universal. While biological males generally identify their gender as male (and same with biological females identifying as female), gender is different all over the world and through history. In the case of this transgender child, the child is naturally attracted to giddy unicorns and pink sparkles and other girly stuff. But there is nothing in the human genetics that makes either sex predisposed to something that does not exist naturally (in this case glitter and princesses and whatever else CORPORATIONS created). So in a society where these sorts of materialism are geared towards females is a society where gender is derived from an attraction to this stuff. If there are other countries that do the opposite (where they expect males to like pink for no reason whatsoever), then those that fall into categories of interest relating to these things would identify their gender as male.

I can't think of any gender roles that are and have always been universal.

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No I believe there were definitely established roles for men and women but i suppose those roles have become blurred over time

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I've met a transgendered person before, their is definitely something to be said about the "odd" factor meaning the shock value. However, I'm not here to judge. I sort of feel sorry for those people, because even today it seems outlandish to completely change your gender through surgery to a number of people. Anyway, Im on the fence about this one.

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I got up to the fourth page of this topic and shook my head. I believe as a Christian that we cannot judge a person. That is God's doing. But if she is doing something wrong, standing strong in her beliefs, then we can try to help. Otherwise it is God's will to change a heart. Not ours.

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Let the poor kid do what he wants, if he wants to live his life as a girl, that's his choice, and the parent's for letting him do it. It's not hurting anyone, so why not just let people be themselves.

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Let the poor kid do what he wants, if he wants to live his life as a girl, that's his choice, and the parent's for letting him do it. It's not hurting anyone, so why not just let people be themselves.
Because Nietzsche was right when he wrote: "My idea is that every specific body strives to become master over all space and to extend its force (its will to power) and to thrust back all that resists its extension. But it continually encounters similar efforts on the part of other bodies and ends by coming to an arrangement ("union") with those of them that are sufficiently related to it: thus they then conspire together for power. And the process goes on." Man is arrogant and thinks that just because he or she would not do something, means that everyone else must likewise refrain from that habitus.

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Because Nietzsche was right when he wrote: "My idea is that every specific body strives to become master over all space and to extend its force (its will to power) and to thrust back all that resists its extension. But it continually encounters similar efforts on the part of other bodies and ends by coming to an arrangement ("union") with those of them that are sufficiently related to it: thus they then conspire together for power. And the process goes on." Man is arrogant and thinks that just because he or she would not do something, means that everyone else must likewise refrain from that habitus.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense.

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I'm sorry but this makes no sense.
Or maybe it is so sensible that it just blew your mind and now you cannot comprehend it. :laugh:

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More like I'm just asking for an explanation...
I was just kidding, before. I will explain. Friedrich Nietzsche developed the concept of will to power. Simply put, the will to power means that every person wants to recreate the world in his or her own image. Every subjective-ego (some might call it a soul) desires to be God, in a manner of speaking. So, for example, I am a staunch advocate of human rights and, thus, I believe every culture and nation should obey the laws of human rights (i.e. humanism). I purport a moral system and call actions against human rights "evil." The same works even for religious people. Christian fundamentalists want everyone to believe the same creeds and dogmas that they do, and even create the conception of hell as punishment for not adhering to the same creed that exists in their ego. Horsesforlife asked, "why not just let people be themselves"? Nietzsche's answer would be that people are probably not going to let people be themselves, because of this innate drive to dominate and force the world to conform to their notions of right and wrong.

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I was just kidding, before. I will explain. Friedrich Nietzsche developed the concept of will to power. Simply put, the will to power means that every person wants to recreate the world in his or her own image. Every subjective-ego (some might call it a soul) desires to be God, in a manner of speaking. So, for example, I am a staunch advocate of human rights and, thus, I believe every culture and nation should obey the laws of human rights (i.e. humanism). I purport a moral system and call actions against human rights "evil." The same works even for religious people. Christian fundamentalists want everyone to believe the same creeds and dogmas that they do, and even create the conception of hell as punishment for not adhering to the same creed that exists in their ego. Horsesforlife asked, "why not just let people be themselves"? Nietzsche's answer would be that people are probably not going to let people be themselves, because of this innate drive to dominate and force the world to conform to their notions of right and wrong.

Okay, I understand what you are saying now, thanks!

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So are you debating whether or not it's wrong, or whether or not it's wrong and we should stop them?

Anyway, I find it strange that we live in a society where people think gender is a choice, and sexual orientation is a genetic predisposition.

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Anyway, I find it strange that we live in a society where people think gender is a choice, and sexual orientation is a genetic predisposition.

Yea, facts are really strange, eh?

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Anyway, I find it strange that we live in a society where people think gender is a choice, and sexual orientation is a genetic predisposition.
I am not sure I agree that our society believes sexual orientation is a genetic predisposition or that gender is a construct separate from sex, since we are still a very conservative society.

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So are you debating whether or not it's wrong, or whether or not it's wrong and we should stop them?

Anyway, I find it strange that we live in a society where people think gender is a choice, and sexual orientation is a genetic predisposition.

People who believe gender is a choice and "choose" to live as a different gender are very strange, and probably perverted people.

People who believe gender is not a choice and you can be one gender but live in the wrong body are transgender. They did not choose to feel the way they feel. However, a lot of them do go through a process of finding out what their gender is, in which case they do "choose" to transition or not. And don't forget the oft spoken words that gender is determined in your brain and sex is determined by your body.

And actually there is more genetic proof for trans people than there is for people of different sexual orientations, but that's a whole different topic. Either way, 90% of the time people don't choose to be attracted to people of the same sex.

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People who believe gender is a choice are very strange, and probably perverted people.

People who believe gender is not a choice and you can be one gender but live in the wrong body are transgender. They did not choose to feel the way they feel. However, a lot of them do go through a process of finding out what their gender is, in which case they do "choose" to transition or not. And don't forget the oft spoken words that gender is determined in your brain and sex is determined by your body.

And actually there is more genetic proof for trans people than there is for people of different sexual orientations, but that's a whole different topic. Either way, 90% of the time people don't choose to be attracted to people of the same sex.

There is a difference between essentialism and social constructivism as it relates to gender issues. Essentialism is the belief that our innate biology determines our gender. Social constructivism is the belief that the socialisation process constructs gender. Neither theory, however, purports that sexual attraction to another gender/sex or feelings of your own gender/sex are "choices." Social constructivism states that gender and sexual orientation are developed in the same sense as our notions of beauty. Sexual identity is believed to be more malleable under social constructivism, but orientation/gender are never treated as a "choice," just as liking a particular food or drink is not a choice.

In my humble opinion, both essentialism and constructivism are true. There are biological preponderances to homosexuality and preponderances towards gender identity disorder (GIS). However, much of our gendered life is constructed by culture. Northwestern University conducted a study and found that females are naturally bisexual, in the sense that females experience strong arousal to homosexual and heterosexual sex, independent of their own sexual orientation. Thus, it would seem as if culture/socialisation dictates whether females have a romantic attraction towards males or females. It might also explain why so many girls are coming out as bisexual in our contemporary society, specially since the feminine ideal of beauty is idealised in our Western culture.

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