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silent wolf

salvation

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Ok, I'm not trying to debate on if once saved always saved is true or not, I just have some questions for both sides.

For OSAS people: If that doctrine is true than what about christians who have strayed from the faith? What if a christian doesn't want to but is tempted and eventually believes a lie?

For the other people: How can a christian not fall away if there's unavoidable obsticles, which are fatal to one's spirtual life, in the way?

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This is a big debate on CTF. I used to believe OSAS. However, I have changed said belief thru personal prayer and Bible study. I'm on the fence for the time being.

My feelings are this;

You are not lost again with every sin. God understands a mess up and his grace abounds. However, if you can live the way of the world, you are not a Christian. The Bible commands Christians to live holy. Everyone sins. God understands that, and he saved you knowing that you would never be perfect on this earth, so don't think that every time you commit one sin you are on your way to Hell. That would make God a tyrant and God is not a tyrant.

You can be lost again, by living a sinful lifestyle. You choose to forfit God's grace if you repeatedly sin and live a lifestyle of sin without repentance. God will not make you stay saved. Just as he did not force salvation on you, he will not force you to stay saved. While he allows you to stay saved when you commit sin, but there comes a point where God lets you choose to walk away. Once you repent (get forgiven and turn your life back to God) you have come back to your salvation.

No one knows when the cut off point is between sinning and saved and sinning and lost. In other words, no one knows how many sins it actually takes a person to backslide and forfit salvation in God's eyes. It may be 5 sins. It may be 50. It may be 500. No one knows, because the Bible doesn't say. That is why it is so important for someone who has accepted Christ as there Savior to continue to live Christ like. However, no good works you do can maintain salvation either. Salvation is accepted by asking God to save you (repentance) and God keeps you saved if you continue to repent of your sins. Don't freak out every time you mess up. But repent daily so that you don't fall into a lifestyle of sin. Every day you go without repentance, the easier it gets to forget to repent.

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This is a big debate on CTF. I used to believe OSAS. However, I have changed said belief thru personal prayer and Bible study. I'm on the fence for the time being.

My feelings are this;

You are not lost again with every sin. God understands a mess up and his grace abounds. However, if you can live the way of the world, you are not a Christian. The Bible commands Christians to live holy. Everyone sins. God understands that, and he saved you knowing that you would never be perfect on this earth, so don't think that every time you commit one sin you are on your way to Hell. That would make God a tyrant and God is not a tyrant.

You can be lost again, by living a sinful lifestyle. You choose to forfit God's grace if you repeatedly sin and live a lifestyle of sin without repentance. God will not make you stay saved. Just as he did not force salvation on you, he will not force you to stay saved. While he allows you to stay saved when you commit sin, but there comes a point where God lets you choose to walk away. Once you repent (get forgiven and turn your life back to God) you have come back to your salvation.

No one knows when the cut off point is between sinning and saved and sinning and lost. In other words, no one knows how many sins it actually takes a person to backslide and forfit salvation in God's eyes. It may be 5 sins. It may be 50. It may be 500. No one knows, because the Bible doesn't say. That is why it is so important for someone who has accepted Christ as there Savior to continue to live Christ like. However, no good works you do can maintain salvation either. Salvation is accepted by asking God to save you (repentance) and God keeps you saved if you continue to repent of your sins. Don't freak out every time you mess up. But repent daily so that you don't fall into a lifestyle of sin. Every day you go without repentance, the easier it gets to forget to repent.

I agree in part, but not the whole "how many sins" thing.

It's all in the heart, where your heart is and what you truly feel inside. God knows our thoughts and our feelings, He knows our love for Him and if all that is lost than I don't believe one remains saved.

There are certain arguements however that may have some sort of validity to them but it's really hard to tell. The one arguement is that when one accept Jesus they receive the Holy Spirit which would never let one stray from the faith. Therefore if one ever accepted Jesus they would never feel the need to not believe, so in conclusion if one ever says they once believed in God but don't anymore then they never really accepted Christ to begin with. This is debatable and not what I believe but it is a theory which has some credibility to it.

This brings up the question though, if one is "unsaved" does that mean that the Holy Spirit joins us and then departs when we stop believing?

I believe that acceptance of Jesus and faith in Him is a process. We accept Christ and then we are constantly trained to be a better Christian and gain a greater love for God by the Holy Spirit. I believe that if we accept Jesus as Lord and then constantly deny the Holy Spirits attempts to make us better Christians then the Holy Spirit will stop working in our lives, thus making us no longer saved.

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This brings up the question though, if one is "unsaved" does that mean that the Holy Spirit joins us and then departs when we stop believing?

Not an issue for Pentecostals haha, we believe you recieve the Holy Ghost after you are saved by seeking him :P

However, it may be an issue for the OP. Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything that you said.

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Not an issue for Pentecostals haha, we believe you recieve the Holy Ghost after you are saved by seeking him :P

However, it may be an issue for the OP. Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything that you said.

Sorry, but are you saying you believe that when you accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour you receive the Holy Spirit right then and there?

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Romans 8:38-39 - "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

If death nor life nor angels nor demons can separate one from the love of Christ, then I don't suppose that deceit nor mistaken belief nor even sin could penetrate the salvation of someone who has accepted the grace of Jesus.

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Titus 3:5 - "[H]e saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit"

Truly, if one is regenerated by the Holy Spirit according to the mercy of God could this person become "un-regenerate" and once again be lost to sin? Such a thing seems unlikely to me.

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2 Corinthians 5:17 - "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"

As it was with the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, so it is with the new creation of those in Christ that I fail to understand as something which can be lost.

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Sorry, but are you saying you believe that when you accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour you receive the Holy Spirit right then and there?

No lol, you recieve him after salvation, not at salvation. Like I got saved in July. I didnt recieve the Holy Ghost until early September.

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No lol, you recieve him after salvation, not at salvation. Like I got saved in July. I didnt recieve the Holy Ghost until early September.

How do you know this?

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Because I spoke in tongues which is the evidence of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:1-6

1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

They recieved the Holy Ghost after they believed.

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But not all who are saved speak in tongues. So how do I know I'm saved since I have never done such a thing?

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But not all who are saved speak in tongues. So how do I know I'm saved since I have never done such a thing?

Recieving the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues is not a requirement of salvation. The only requirements for salvation are layed out in Romans 10:9-10. When God convicts your heart and you ask him to save you in faith, you will know you are saved in your heart.

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I don't mean if a person sins so many times than that person strays from God. I mean if a person is truely born again, from the only living Saviour, is around a certain group of people who believe in a different Jesus. And that person keeps hearing the lie so much that that person ends up following after that false Christ. How can that be prevented?

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I don't mean if a person sins so many times than that person strays from God. I mean if a person is truely born again, from the only living Saviour, is around a certain group of people who believe in a different Jesus. And that person keeps hearing the lie so much that that person ends up following after that false Christ. How can that be prevented?

If the person strays after a false Christ, he/she is not saved. Same as a Christian who becomes a Muslim. They reject Christ and follow after a false Christ. They may have been saved, but in following the false god they blaspheme. Blasphemy is in a sense saying, Jesus I no longer believe in you and I no longer wish to be saved. Belief is the key and the only way to obtain salvation. If one chooses to leave that belief and follow a false Christ or a false god, then that person chooses to give up there salvation. If they regain faith in Jesus Christ as the only way to God and salvation, then they can ask Christ to save them and be saved again. But until that time, they are blaspheming and are lost.

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If the person strays after a false Christ, he/she is not saved. Same as a Christian who becomes a Muslim. They reject Christ and follow after a false Christ. They may have been saved, but in following the false god they blaspheme. Blasphemy is in a sense saying, Jesus I no longer believe in you and I no longer wish to be saved. Belief is the key and the only way to obtain salvation. If one chooses to leave that belief and follow a false Christ or a false god, then that person chooses to give up there salvation. If they regain faith in Jesus Christ as the only way to God and salvation, then they can ask Christ to save them and be saved again. But until that time, they are blaspheming and are lost.

What about the quotes in the book of hebrew 6:4-6? Doesn't that refer to never being able to be saved again?

Let's say a person recognizes there's a false Christ. She doesn't want to follow after him. But, people come by and provide so called "proof" that Christ isn't God;He's an angel. The person trys to resist but it's like quick sand. The more of a struggle the harder it gets to get out of.

Think of it this way "Jane" believes strongly that alcohol is wrong. But, other people provide so called "proof" that she's been lied to! Alcohol in reality is good for her. She trys her best to resist the temptation. But, the more she's influenced by her friends the more likely she'll be brainwashed into believing they are right.

I can't say anything to a certain group of people because they'll probably twist scripture, trying to convice me they are right. If they can't think of an answer, they'll go to their overseerer possibly. He's like the head guy that knows even more than them (he'd really be able to twist scripture.) If a person hears a lie over and over it'll b easier to believe. It makes it even harder because of the "proof". Well, I don't want to get caught in that trap as if I was a rabbit ready for the hunter.

I know Jesus saved me. He lives in me right now. He's my.... it goes beyond words. I have everything with Him, I'm nothing if I loose Him. I don't want to loose my best Friend.

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What about the quotes in the book of hebrew 6:4-6? Doesn't that refer to never being able to be saved again?

Let's say a person recognizes there's a false Christ. She doesn't want to follow after him. But, people come by and provide so called "proof" that Christ isn't God;He's an angel. The person trys to resist but it's like quick sand. The more of a struggle the harder it gets to get out of.

Think of it this way "Jane" believes strongly that alcohol is wrong. But, other people provide so called "proof" that she's been lied to! Alcohol in reality is good for her. She trys her best to resist the temptation. But, the more she's influenced by her friends the more likely she'll be brainwashed into believing they are right.

I can't say anything to a certain group of people because they'll probably twist scripture, trying to convice me they are right. If they can't think of an answer, they'll go to their overseerer possibly. He's like the head guy that knows even more than them (he'd really be able to twist scripture.) If a person hears a lie over and over it'll b easier to believe. It makes it even harder because of the "proof". Well, I don't want to get caught in that trap as if I was a rabbit ready for the hunter.

I know Jesus saved me. He lives in me right now. He's my.... it goes beyond words. I have everything with Him, I'm nothing if I loose Him. I don't want to loose my best Friend.

I haven't actually ever read that part of Hebrews. I will study and get back to you :)

If that person rejects sound doctine, even thru brain washing, that person is lost. They have to form there own conclusions. The only thing you can do is pray and try to be a witness. If you can't speak to her, then you can pray for her. God hears your prayers on the behalf of others salvation.

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I haven't actually ever read that part of Hebrews. I will study and get back to you :)

If that person rejects sound doctine, even thru brain washing, that person is lost. They have to form there own conclusions. The only thing you can do is pray and try to be a witness. If you can't speak to her, then you can pray for her. God hears your prayers on the behalf of others salvation.

I'm "Jane".... -_- How do you witness to yourself? I don't want to be lost, but how do I prevent it from happening?

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For OSAS people: If that doctrine is true than what about christians who have strayed from the faith? What if a christian doesn't want to but is tempted and eventually believes a lie?

I prefer to call this doctrine The Perseverance of the Saints (instead of once saved always saved). The essence of the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is this: if you are truly Christian, if you have truly become a new creature in Christ Jesus-- then ultimately, you will endure until the end. Why? Because God saved you. He is the one who gave you a new heart. You cannot lose your salvation because your salvation never depended upon your own efforts or works in the first place. Salvation is a gift.

As John 10:28 (ESV) states:

...I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will ****** them out of My hand.

Take a look at 1 Peter 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

If I could lose my salvation, I would. How could I not? Have I ever, for every second of an entire day loved the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength? Sadly, no. And that is the greatest command-- and I fall short of it every day!

So in short, to answer your question, no Christian has ever abandoned the faith. Why? Because saints-- because Christian always persevere. God chose Christians before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him (Ephesians 1:4). It is by His power that any person is saved, and that same power keeps that person saved for all eternity.

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I'm "Jane".... -_- How do you witness to yourself? I don't want to be lost, but how do I prevent it from happening?

This changes everything. If you are the person facing this, then you need to cry out to Jesus for help. Christ will save you if you believe in him and ask him. That is all it takes. If you would rather discuss this in more detail, you can PM me, that way it will be more one on one then 15 people trying to refute each other.

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Ok, I'm not trying to debate on if once saved always saved is true or not, I just have some questions for both sides.

For OSAS people: If that doctrine is true than what about christians who have strayed from the faith? What if a christian doesn't want to but is tempted and eventually believes a lie?

For the other people: How can a christian not fall away if there's unavoidable obsticles, which are fatal to one's spirtual life, in the way?

This is a very controversial issue and my views are sort of in the middle of each side. One sin is not going to 'unsave' you. Everyone sins, it's human nature. But I believe you have to seek forgiveness with an honest heart.

Meaning: You cannot use God's grace as a 'get-out-of-hell-free-card'. That's not how it works.

Some people get saved and but they never really changed. Therefore, they were never really a Christian to begin with.

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Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 2 Cor. 5:17 In light of that I just have one question...if you lost your old how can you ever go back to it? It's dead. This begs the notion that if you are 'truly' in Christ and the Spirit bears witness to you, then you are HIS forever. He imparted HIS righteousness to you as a free gift along with grace. Grace says that you get what you didn't deserve...the ability to life in HIM and rise above sin. If you have the ability to sin and yet not live in it? How then can you return to your former ways? Your mind has been renewed as your thoughts and actions. To me that just seems like once in CHRIST there is no way to return or 'leave' the faith, because the faith is in you.

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