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Lion_Angel

Children in Wedlock

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"The people who get married but want no children are sinning. They are rejecting God's design of marriage and what is often called the First Great Commission - Be fruitful and multiply; have dominion over the earth, etc. Those who are infertile have committed no sin by marrying, but are suffering from the corruption of the whole creation. I imagine infertile parents desperately want children and are feeling their helplessness in a fallen world. We should not define marriage according to the brokenness of creation or the exceptions, but according to God's ordering of his creation since the beginning of time. "

I have never heard of the notion that choosing to not have children in marriage is a sin. I think this is ridiculous. Has anyone heard this? What do you think? What are your scriptural views on this notion?

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"The people who get married but want no children are sinning. They are rejecting God's design of marriage and what is often called the First Great Commission - Be fruitful and multiply; have dominion over the earth, etc. Those who are infertile have committed no sin by marrying, but are suffering from the corruption of the whole creation. I imagine infertile parents desperately want children and are feeling their helplessness in a fallen world. We should not define marriage according to the brokenness of creation or the exceptions, but according to God's ordering of his creation since the beginning of time. "

I have never heard of the notion that choosing to not have children in marriage is a sin. I think this is ridiculous. Has anyone heard this? What do you think? What are your scriptural views on this notion?

Aside from the whole "be fruitful and multiply" command(which I don't think really applies as much anymore becuase we just hit one trillion people on the planet.), I fail to see the logic in this quote and thus agree with you. Some people can't have kids, and some people would make REALLY bad parents and know they'd be horrible at parenting so to procreate would be stupid, and some people just plain ol' don't want to have kids.

I don't think childless couples are sinning. Some people just don't have the guts to handle kids. God makes us all different and that's perfectly ok. Unless they're refusing to have children for stupid/selfish/superficial reasons like: "Oh, but it'll ruin my perfect body!"

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I don't think childless couples are sinning. Some people just don't have the guts to handle kids. God makes us all different and that's perfectly ok. Unless they're refusing to have children for stupid/selfish/superficial reasons like: "Oh, but it'll ruin my perfect body!"

The person that says "Oh, but it'll ruin my perfect body!" probably would make a bad parent anyways.

In the past when the chosen people had few numbers and diseases killed a large portion of the population early procreation was highly important in order to further humanity and the glory of God. Now-days this procreation only marriage seems to only be used as an argument against legalizing gay-domestic partnerships. At least whenever I see it used.

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The person that says "Oh, but it'll ruin my perfect body!" probably would make a bad parent anyways.

In the past when the chosen people had few numbers and diseases killed a large portion of the population early procreation was highly important in order to further humanity and the glory of God. Now-days this procreation only marriage seems to only be used as an argument against legalizing gay-domestic partnerships. At least whenever I see it used.

Funny you say that, because this argument cropped up in a conversation regarding gay-domestic partnerships. And you're right, I really don't think it's a valid argument.

There doesn't seem to be any Scripture regarding it as a sin, anyhow. And, the command was to Adam and Eve--the very first of the earth! Of course that would be God's command to them. He also has told us to take care of the earth, and having more people on the earth is only going to harm it further.

Well, now I guess we wait to see if anyone agrees with the quote-in-question.

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Well, I'd agree with the quote, but not at face value. Children are a reward, a grace from God. Having a child helps us in our faith life because it's a perfect opportunity to teach us unconditional love. The whole family system is edifying for the sanctification of our souls. If you're in a marriage and actively avoid/prevent yourself via surgery from having children, you are sinning. If you are incapable of having children (through genetic or accidental means) you are not sinning.

You guys have to remember that Children have always been considered a blessing by God. We have just lost this sense recently because we live in a vastly different society than we once did and no longer have to pass our inheritance to our children or rely on them in our old age quite as much.

Also there is scripture besides just Genesis that refer to children:

Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.

Like arrows in the hand of a warrior

are the children of one's youth.

Blessed is the man

who fills his quiver with them!

He shall not be put to shame

when he speaks with his enemies in the gate

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Well, I'd agree with the quote, but not at face value. Children are a reward, a grace from God. Having a child helps us in our faith life because it's a perfect opportunity to teach us unconditional love. The whole family system is edifying for the sanctification of our souls. If you're in a marriage and actively avoid/prevent yourself via surgery from having children, you are sinning. If you are incapable of having children (through genetic or accidental means) you are not sinning.

You guys have to remember that Children have always been considered a blessing by God. We have just lost this sense recently because we live in a vastly different society than we once did and no longer have to pass our inheritance to our children or rely on them in our old age quite as much.

What about natural family planning?

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What about natural family planning?

Natural family planning isn't 100% effective and still leaves the possibility of a child open. As long as the couple engages in sex open to the idea of having a child, it's fine.

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I agree I don't want kids but my wife does but she still hasn't gotten prego yet so don't know!!!!! She should be put it that way by name, we are bout to be married 2years next feb.

Aside from the whole "be fruitful and multiply" command(which I don't think really applies as much anymore becuase we just hit one trillion people on the planet.), I fail to see the logic in this quote and thus agree with you. Some people can't have kids, and some people would make REALLY bad parents and know they'd be horrible at parenting so to procreate would be stupid, and some people just plain ol' don't want to have kids.

I don't think childless couples are sinning. Some people just don't have the guts to handle kids. God makes us all different and that's perfectly ok. Unless they're refusing to have children for stupid/selfish/superficial reasons like: "Oh, but it'll ruin my perfect body!"

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Natural family planning isn't 100% effective and still leaves the possibility of a child open. As long as the couple engages in sex open to the idea of having a child, it's fine.

But their intention is to not have a baby. Similar to people on Birth control. Birth control and condoms don't work 100%. What is the difference in natural family planning and contraceptives?

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I think children in marriage is like any other decision. Yes, children are blessings from God, very valuable. Yes, it is okay for a couple to try not to have children if they do not want them. However, the couple must always be open to the possibility that God might want them to have children. It is just like traveling. It is perfectly fine for someone to do what he can to ensure a safe travel, but since He does not know God's exact future plan, he must be open to submission to the possibility that God will create a disaster for his secret purpose.

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But their intention is to not have a baby. Similar to people on Birth control. Birth control and condoms don't work 100%. What is the difference in natural family planning and contraceptives?

Well, this rabbit hole is something that I am not accurately equip to discuss the theology on this issue. My only thoughts are that using family planning is less effective than condoms and birth control. Both non-natural forms of preventing pregnancies are much more effective than nfp. I also tend to see it as, God created the female's cycle, so there's nothing with using the cycle to try to avoid getting pregnant when you can not handle it.

The thing I'm saying is that I have no issue with two people being married and not having kids right away. I think a marriage in which they plan to never have kids is immoral, but as long as there are plans and intentions to have kids eventually, it's fine.

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The thing I'm saying is that I have no issue with two people being married and not having kids right away. I think a marriage in which they plan to never have kids is immoral, but as long as there are plans and intentions to have kids eventually, it's fine.

Immoral? I can't wrap my head around it.

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Immoral? I can't wrap my head around it.

What's the point of two people getting married if they don't have children (and I'm not speaking if one person physically can't have children. I mean if they simply choose not to)? Honestly, the purpose of marriage is to image the life of God. God is the Trinity. There are three persons of God giving unconditional love and support to each other. Just like the Holy Family mirrors this, our earthly families should mirror this. If you enter into a marriage and specifically plan to never have children, it just seems like you're cheating not only yourself, but the design that God had for marriage.

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I completly agree with the quotation. Where does it come from?

I think trying not to have children deliberatly goes completly against God's design. Why would you prevent your body from conceiving children when God makes it so that you can have children?

To me, what God commanded to Adam and Eve is still available, the argument which says "well, God said that to them, but it was juste because they were the first on earth". But how can you know that? Did God take you into His confidence? This argument is of the same kind of that those which say "The Bible has to adapt itself to the moderne world". The Bible was written a long time ago, but it's still available. Nothing has changed except the peope.

It's also about contraception, why would you go against the will of the Father deciding to have children or not.

I think Christianity is all bout letting God decide and not having a own will

Of course peopel with infertility's issues are not sining.

Today people have a bad habit (even among christians) that consist in this simple sentence "I want to decide for myself". But what's the point saying "i trust God completly, He'll do everything He wants of my life"? Is it just to say something that sounds nice?

I can't understand Christian that do not let the place God deserve in their life, i-e ALL the place.

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I completly agree with the quotation. Where does it come from?

I think trying not to have children deliberatly goes completly against God's design. Why would you prevent your body from conceiving children when God makes it so that you can have children?

To me, what God commanded to Adam and Eve is still available, the argument which says "well, God said that to them, but it was juste because they were the first on earth". But how can you know that? Did God take you into His confidence? This argument is of the same kind of that those which say "The Bible has to adapt itself to the moderne world". The Bible was written a long time ago, but it's still available. Nothing has changed except the peope.

It's also about contraception, why would you go against the will of the Father deciding to have children or not.

I think Christianity is all bout letting God decide and not having a own will

Of course peopel with infertility's issues are not sining.

Today people have a bad habit (even among christians) that consist in this simple sentence "I want to decide for myself". But what's the point saying "i trust God completly, He'll do everything He wants of my life"? Is it just to say something that sounds nice?

I can't understand Christian that do not let the place God deserve in their life, i-e ALL the place.

If you really are just going to say you put every decision in Christ then don't do anything. The point of life is to have a free will but willingly doing things that God would be proud of. By all means ask him what you should do and try to figure out what he wants. From their it is your job to do it. God rarely gives out hand outs.

And if your going to be against any form of contraceptives are you also be against medicine for the same reasoning?

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First, just know that i'm totally open to conversation and that there is any agressivity in my words (just to make them clear).That's for this kind of issue that i see the necessity of having different denominations in the world. Because, for sure among Christians, some see their Christianity in a different way.

"If you really are just going to say you put every decision in Christ then don't do anything": But i don't do anything on my own, or i mean, every time i have a decision to make i ask God and He answers me. That's the point of having a real relationship with God. My God is alive and He is the most available. I have a problem, i ask Him. Don't know what to say / do, i ask Him. that's how it works, at least for me. And He answers.

The point of life is not (to me) to have free will. Not at all, at least not for Christians. The point of a Christian life is tyo put Jesus in first, to be entirely devoted to Him. And to do so, you must not do anything that could prevent Him from acting. Of course, he is strongest than everything, BUT as Christian we must and we have to let Him have a free hand on our liofe.

I'm not sure that using contraceptives makes God being proud of you. How could he be proud of a child that decide for his own life and don't let Him the place He deserves?

It's clear for me that God wants to have ALL the place in your life. Your life, as a christian, is not about you and your will but it's all about Him. We are just tools like paintings and God wants to put on us everything He wants to make his glory shine all over the world.

I'm not sure to know what do you mean by "medicine", could you explain me more precisely?

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I'm not sure to know what do you mean by "medicine", could you explain me more precisely?

What I mean is if your going to expect God to do everything for you, and not do anything that could mess up your natural hormones, medicine should not be taken, and lots of foods can do the same thing to your hormones. So faith healing would be the way to go.

And I'm not saying to not follow God, but he did give everyone free will and we are to use it to the best of our ability to glorify God.

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which I don't think really applies as much anymore becuase we just hit one trillion people on the planet.

Lies. The global population is 0.7% of 1 trillion :^\

And I agree with Zabby <3

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But i try in my everyday life not to take medicine except if i'm at death's door. I'm from these people who tries to apply they beliefs in their life. I'm not using beautiful words just for the fun.

I think that's the point of being Christian, trying to be as close of the perfection like Jesus.

Free will is an invention of the human being. As children of God we have any will but the Father's.

I think, we have to put everything in His hands.

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What's the point of two people getting married if they don't have children (and I'm not speaking if one person physically can't have children. I mean if they simply choose not to)?

How about: To share the rest of their life with one special person?

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How about: To share the rest of their life with one special person?

What sanctifying purpose does that have?

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Off the top of my head, this is what I'm thinking.

God created Eve to be a "helpmeet" to Adam and to nullify his loneliness. Therefore, the first established purpose of marriage was a companionship between a man and a woman. And God didn't wait till they had children to call it a "good" thing. Thusly, I believe it is a matter of personal choice whether or not to have children. I don't know of a single verse in the Bible where it says a childless marriage is sin. There are verses such as the one that says that children are like arrows in a man's quiver; in other words, they are a blessing. Not a necessity.

Just my thoughts. :)

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What sanctifying purpose does that have?

Even if you don't, or can't have children, marriage still privides many blessings, including keeping you from sexual immorality, but the main one being having a #2 in your life after God to help and serve each other in all things and be each other's strength, which means that the couple can grow closer to God together, as well,which is as close to sanctifying as marriage gets, because getting married does not forgive you of your sins, which is technically what sanctifying means. (Zabby, please don't take this as argumentative, because that's not what I mean at all. I'm just defending my point of view).

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I can't engage in this conversation because my definition of marriage is different from your guys (mine comes from a Sacramental angle and in my mind, you can not have marriage without sex and in my mind you can't engage in sex without leaving the option of Children open.) We're never going to come to an agreement on this, so I will bow out.

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I believe marriage has three purposes by nature: to reflect the glory of God as it appears in the relationship between Jesus Christ and His church (Eph. 5:23-32), to provide a special, intimate companionship (Gen. 2:18, 22-4), and to provide a framework in which procreation may take place (Gen. 1:28). However, I believe the primary purpose is to reflect the glory of God as with Christ and the Church, and that children are not a necessary part of that. While children are a blessing, and God certainly encourages having them, they are not commanded for marriage. The only commands ever given in Scripture to have children are to Adam and Eve and to Noah's family. Since these were each in unique instances, namely populating the earth from a small beginning, it would require external Biblical evidence to show that these commands are universal in scope. However, no such evidence exists, and even among the hundreds of laws given to Israel regarding almost every aspect of life, no law was given requiring children in marriage. Furthermore, in keeping with Christian liberty, marriage without children is never condemned.

Therefore, the decision not to have children is, in and of itself, morally neutral. However, we must not be proud and assume total control over our own lives, but instead leave place to the will of God (see James 4:13-16). Noting that birth control is not infallible and God is entirely sovereign, I arrive at this conclusion. If a couple wants children, they are free to abstain from birth control, but must accept in their hearts the possibility that God may wish to withhold children from them. If a couple does not want children, they are free to use birth control, but must accept in their hearts the possibility that God may give them children anyway.

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