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Bobartles

Not quite what I expected from the Pope...

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Got something here for you guys to talk about. It shocked me a little; I held similar views when I was still a Christian, and couldn't really talk about them without getting shouted down by the more hard-line Christians I knew. Strange to think that the new Pope has the same ideas.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Have at it. *dons hard hat and ducks*

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How would he explain Romans 3:10-12? Or all the verses that say "believe in the Lord and be saved"? I don't ever recall the Bible saying "thou shall do good works and be saved."

Or how about Isaiah 64:6? "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;"

Romans 1:16? "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

Romans 11:6? "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

2 Timothy 1:9? "Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

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How would he explain Romans 3:10-12? Or all the verses that say "believe in the Lord and be saved"? I don't ever recall the Bible saying "thou shall do good works and be saved."

Or how about Isaiah 64:6? "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;"

Romans 1:16? "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

Romans 11:6? "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

2 Timothy 1:9? "Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

By saying that Christ is known and believed in by spirit rather than by name.

i.e. Matthew 7:21-23 -- “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

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This is hardly revolutionary or extraordinary. The Catholic Church has always said that they know of people who are in Heaven, but they know of no one who is in Hell. This is not to say that the Catholic Church believes Universalism. It is simply saying that God saves who He wills to save and we, as humble humans, have no right to question Him on the matter.

(Yes, I still sound kinda Calvinist. I haven't worked that stuff out yet.)

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It is simply saying that God saves who He wills to save and we, as humble humans, have no right to question Him on the matter.

:D That's one interpretation.

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Maybe the article is over-exaggerating what Pope Francis said. "Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good" and "Atheists are redeemed by Jesus" perhaps means that Jesus died for all people including atheists, not that atheists can find redemption without knowing Jesus. That's a huge stretch, but I'm trying to assume good faith since none of the quotes by the Pope in the article explicitly say "atheists who do good are redeemed."

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Maybe the article is over-exaggerating what Pope Francis said. "Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good" and "Atheists are redeemed by Jesus" perhaps means that Jesus died for all people including atheists, not that atheists can find redemption without knowing Jesus. That's a huge stretch, but I'm trying to assume good faith since none of the quotes by the Pope in the article explicitly say "atheists who do good are redeemed."

It's old news that Catholics believe non-Christians can achieve salvation :V

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It's old news that Catholics believe non-Christians can achieve salvation :V

Yves, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a Catholic argue that an atheist who does good knows Jesus, just not in the traditional way we consider knowing Jesus?

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Yves, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a Catholic argue that an atheist who does good knows Jesus, just not in the traditional way we consider knowing Jesus?

Quite right, yes ^^ I suppose I meant non-Christian in a strict self-ID sense.

Still, my point that a self-proclaiming atheist could in fact be baptized by his desire for the spirit of Christ is neither a new nor shocking idea for Catholicism. This isn't a revolution perpetrated by the Pope, but an affirmation of a doctrine at least as old as Vatican II.

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This is hardly revolutionary or extraordinary. The Catholic Church has always said that they know of people who are in Heaven, but they know of no one who is in Hell. This is not to say that the Catholic Church believes Universalism. It is simply saying that God saves who He wills to save and we, as humble humans, have no right to question Him on the matter.

^This.

I've always believed this, and I'm glad Pope Francis is bringing this up to the attention of people. There are so many crazy assumptions that all Catholics believe all non-Catholics are hell-bound.

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I don't think that people follow an entirely merciless God, afterall we are all supposed to be God's children. I don't think he turns people down based on religion because I believe religion is null and void when it comes to God. Everyone is allow their own personal relationship in which no one should judge. I like Pope Francis, I think he has the power to make a lot of changes in the way some people are with religion, especially those who have a high and mighty take on it.

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People would do well to remember that Roman Catholics conceive of Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity and the Divine Logos. The Second Person has existed long before the incarnation. Christ to me is the ultimate reality of beauty, truth, love and goodness that grounds our being. All who experience beauty, find truth, act with love and partake of goodness instantiate themselves within the Divine Logos. God is not just a person for Roman Catholics, He is the ground of our being.

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People would do well to remember that Roman Catholics conceive of Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity and the Divine Logos. The Second Person has existed long before the incarnation. Christ to me is the ultimate reality of beauty, truth, love and goodness that grounds our being. All who experience beauty, find truth, act with love and partake of goodness instantiate themselves within the Divine Logos. God is not just a person for Roman Catholics, He is the ground of our being.
I think this is where our view of Christianity breaks most visibly. As I see it, the specific person of Jesus Christ is everything! The beauty, truth, love, and goodness found by unbelievers are not somehow sharing in that of the Logos, but are sin-scarred imitation. What makes the things people do, feel, and think good is their specific God-orientation through faith in the person Christ.

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I think this is where our view of Christianity breaks most visibly. As I see it, the specific person of Jesus Christ is everything! The beauty, truth, love, and goodness found by unbelievers are not somehow sharing in that of the Logos, but are sin-scarred imitation. What makes the things people do, feel, and think good is their specific God-orientation through faith in the person Christ.
Once you take beauty, truth, love and goodness away from the reality of the world, I think you destroy the very idea of Logos itself. And that is why Roman Catholic theologians such as Richard Rohr critique contemporary Christianity for only giving lip-service to the Trinity; not actually believing it as the underlying reality of existence. The incarnation is the Absolute humanness, the Absolute becoming human; and regenerating the brokenness and separation that resulted from the First Adam. We make a grave mistake, in my humble view, in forgetting where Christ comes from. I am not sure how Christ is formed without the idea of Logos. Without the pre-Jesus, the pre-Incarnation beingness of all formed reality of the Divine Son, Jesus becomes reduced to a mere philosopher, a great moral teacher.

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Once you take beauty, truth, love and goodness away from the reality of the world, I think you destroy the very idea of Logos itself. And that is why Roman Catholic theologians such as Richard Rohr critique contemporary Christianity for only giving lip-service to the Trinity; not actually believing it as the underlying reality of existence. The incarnation is the Absolute humanness, the Absolute becoming human; and regenerating the brokenness and separation that resulted from the First Adam. We make a grave mistake, in my humble view, in forgetting where Christ comes from. I am not sure how Christ is formed without the idea of Logos. Without the pre-Jesus, the pre-Incarnation beingness of all formed reality of the Divine Son, Jesus becomes reduced to a mere philosopher, a great moral teacher.
I feel that I'm missing your conception of the Logos. Care to elaborate?

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