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tabithakay

Gay Marraige

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Being as I am not a genetics major and probably don't understand 50% of what y'all are saying, I am officially bowing out of this debate. I bow to superior intellect :P

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I am not very confident in the genetic explanation as the defining feature of sexual orientation. I am open to the possibility that it is an influence, but I am doubtful that it is the primary determinate. I tend to assent with the infant sexuality attachment theories of psychoanalysis. How children deal with the oedipus complex, and their earliest sexual experience appear to me to be the dominant determining factors in sexual orientation. In other words, the earliest attachments of the object-libido are determinant of our overall sexual lives, not merely sexual orientation. So for example, the sorts of fetishes we develop have an intimate connection with our first sexual experiences as children.

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Ah, Freud. Always so lovely.

 

I am honestly surprised that more Christians are not accepting of the psychoanalytic tradition. It seems to me that monstrous state of our sexual drives uncovered by Sigmund Freud and the theology of original sin preached by St. Paul are quite congruent. Our modern sensibilities revolt against the idea that infants and children are sexual beings, but if we are truly born in original sin, then it is not so absurd to believe that infants and children are sexually perverse. I have always felt that psychoanalysis is the only psychology that takes original sin as a permanent feature of human existence.

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See, I honestly don't feel like proving a genetic orgin of homosexual tendency really serves to answer the question as to weather or not same-sex marriage is permissible. Yes, who or what we are attracted to is probably influenced by genetics to a degree and probably prenatal environment and early environment and social environment. Estrogen's in the water. Trauma in some cases {you'd see this more often in girls, I'd argue... but this is more anecdotal}. Attraction is anything but simple.

 

There are other, better questions to be asking than 'is homosexual attraction genetic or environmental'. It's probably both. Done. Moving on...  Now what are the implications for that? What does condoning same-sex marriage do for society? What about banning it? What is the place of the homosexual person in the church? Is homosexuality sinful? Is the attraction sinful {I would think not}? But what about the act? If it is sinful what does that mean for same-sex attracted individuals who, as we've already established, don't have control over their attraction? What is the best and most Christ-like way to love these people?

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Ah, Freud. Always so lovely.

 

Yes, so lovely (not).

 

Estrogen's in the water. 

 

 

Are you talking about estrogen in water making boys more likely to be gay? Because studies show gay men have the same amount of testosterone as straight men. Lesbians have the same amount of estrogen as straight women. And in the 1950s and 1960s doctors would inject gay men with testosterone, but it wasn't successful. In many cases gay men became hyper-sexual because of it. 

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XP Oop. Call me out. Haha.

 

I'm actually not sure if that's correct {I've heard about it, but haven't researched in depth} my point was more that some people blame environmental things. Estrogen in water is incorrect actually, methinks. Maybe it was estrogen in plastic? Heck, I don't know. My point was more that some people point to environmental {as in air pollution} which, though I personally don't put much stock in it, is just one of the things feeding in. I mean it's not totally implausible I suppose. If fumes from diesel engines can be highly correlated with Autism and brain tumors can cause a inclination towards pedophilia why couldn't BPA or MSG or ABC or XYZ cause an inclination towards same sex attraction?  

 

My point was more simply that the cause is complicated. Not one thing like a 'gay gene' or what have you.

 

Edit: Also, with the pedophilia thing. I'm not drawing a comparison to the two in the sense that they are anywhere near morally comparable just that it's something that has a partially biological basis as well. In a case where someone, especially later in life, experienced a dramatic and unprecedented shift in orientation it might be fair to expect a neurological basis. *shrugs* Though this would be exceedingly rare methinks.

 

Edit 2: Dang it though there was something to do with out of wack estrogen/testosterone levels early in life....  Aggression maybe? Anxious Temperament? Autism? Later Psychopathy? And something about RORA... maybe it is autism. Gah. Forgive me guys, I'm up to my eyeballs in developmental neuropsychology right now. XP

Edited by Marley

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I have more testosterone than the average heterosexual male, and I am a lot less masculine than the average heterosexual male.

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Guest JAG
Typically, yes, heterosexuality is the usual outcome for sex preference. However, the evidence for sexuality being linked to gene's is strong. Again, your dna is actually no different from a tigers in function. How do you explain sexuality being controlled genetically in them and not humans?

 

 

I haven't been following the conversation, but "Tiger" caught my eye and it reminded me of a discussion I once had with a man who claimed animals had superior morals to humans.  I then showed him how certain animals commit infanticide and cannibalism.  He then narrowed his approach and said, "well, mammals have superior morals to humans" to which I explained that lions have been seen murdering a lionesses children and then claiming her as his mate - rape.

 

Ultimately, an appeal to "natural' should be dismissed with a bon-mot. 

 

"Natural" is too ambiguous, and doesn't answer the question of morality.

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I am honestly surprised that more Christians are not accepting of the psychoanalytic tradition. It seems to me that monstrous state of our sexual drives uncovered by Sigmund Freud and the theology of original sin preached by St. Paul are quite congruent. Our modern sensibilities revolt against the idea that infants and children are sexual beings, but if we are truly born in original sin, then it is not so absurd to believe that infants and children are sexually perverse. I have always felt that psychoanalysis is the only psychology that takes original sin as a permanent feature of human existence.

 

I'm quoting this on my blog to start a discussion.

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Of course we are. We are all sinners and come short of the glory of God. For us to focus,primarily, on their sin and hate them for it... makes us hypocrites. They're just as human as anyone else. But does that mean we should accept their lifestyle? No. It's still an abomination no matter what society says. Society says a lot of things and 99% of the time it goes against God's word. I have yet to see someone give tangible evidence to show homosexuality is created by God. If God says He thinks it's abomination. He means it. It's not meant to be interpreted as something else. People like to look deeper into certain scriptures and make them more complex than they are...because they can't handle the truth. The truth really does hurt

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erm...if it wasnt for gay rights i wouldnt be married to my wife....

also if we were going by every rule in the bible we wouldnt be wearing wool

we wouldnt cut our hair

we wouldnt pierce our ear

or get tattoos

or have sex on certain days including sunday,mondays tuesday passover 

we wouldnt have the internet

just saying to those who believe gay marriage"is against the bible" should pratice what they preach before slamming on us

Remember in the New Testament when it said that the veil was rent from top to bottom. That meant that the Mosaic Law had been abolished. Also, In Hebrews it says that the Mosaic Law was just a teacher. Remember what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. These cities were destroyed because of their homosexuality. 

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I am not a biologist nor a theologian but, we need to remember that nothing happens without God allowing it to

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I am against gay marriage because it would be supporting sin (sexual immorality) and we are supposed to correct others in their sin and lead them closer to Christ. We are called to love others, even our enemies, and hate no one. Hate comes from anger, and anger is one of the seven deadly sins.

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Homosexual peoples are sick, homosexuality is mental illness. They should live by the God rules and live a healthy life and they will be cured. I've seen alot of documentaries where people were cured. There are also a institutions where priests help people to cure homosexuality. And trust me homosexuality is a CHOICE!

God bless you all :)

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My cousin posted this: 

 

http://prntscr.com/3bxi78

 

Which I completely disagree with. 

 

Personally, I think that it's a sin and shouldn't be accepted. Some people go to the extent of saying that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to even walk into a church, but that's now showing God's love. Yes, we are to welcome them to the church, but we need to reteach them the correct ways. 

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Homosexual peoples are sick, homosexuality is mental illness. They should live by the God rules and live a healthy life and they will be cured. I've seen alot of documentaries where people were cured. There are also a institutions where priests help people to cure homosexuality. And trust me homosexuality is a CHOICE!

God bless you all :)

 

If homosexuality is a mental illness then I have to ask what its symptoms are?

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If homosexuality is a mental illness then I have to ask what its symptoms are?

Homosexuality is caused by the sin. It is just a level of sexual perversion (homosexuality than pedophilia than zoophilia...)

Did u notice that more than 90% of homosexual people are atheist or agnostic? This is because they drifted away from God, they are just going more and more to the sin.

And of course, they should go to church, but unfortunately only the small numbers of them want to change (because they are directly under satan influence)

We can only pray for them.

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Homosexuality is caused by the sin. It is just a level of sexual perversion (homosexuality than pedophilia than zoophilia...)

Did u notice that more than 90% of homosexual people are atheist or agnostic? This is because they drifted away from God, they are just going more and more to the sin.

And of course, they should go to church, but unfortunately only the small numbers of them want to change (because they are directly under satan influence)

We can only pray for them.

 

None of that makes sense. First of all, LGBTQ people are approximately split between religious and non-religious according to survey data. It also seems that LGBTQ people become atheist/agnostic because religious people demonize them and drive them out of religion. Secondly, the slippery slope argument is simply ridiculous. There is no indication that homosexuality is linked to pedophilia or zoophilia. Even if we were to accept the notion that homosexuality is a perversion, that is like me saying: if we allow people to be overweight, without calling them out on it, it will lead to other wanton behaviors in their life... eventually, people who are overweight will think nothing of violence and murder.

 

So, basically, you have absolutely no reasoning to support you claim that homosexuality is a mental illness. Why am I not surprised? :rolleyes:   

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if we allow people to be overweight, without calling them out on it, it will lead to other wanton behaviors in their life... eventually, people who are overweight will think nothing of violence and murder.

 

This fits the data perfectly, and so validates his argument. After all, I can think of at least a dozen cases on the news recently where morbidly obese people were arrested after fleeing the scene of murders and assaults but stopping to pick up donuts.

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This fits the data perfectly, and so validates his argument. After all, I can think of at least a dozen cases on the news recently where morbidly obese people were arrested after fleeing the scene of murders and assaults but stopping to pick up donuts.

 

I think it is also true that 90% of murderers are bread-eaters, and have eaten bread within 24-hours of committing murder.

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I think it is also true that 90% of murderers are bread-eaters, and have eaten bread within 24-hours of committing murder.

 

It's that darned leaven. Jesus didn't use it as a metaphor for sin for no reason.

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