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First Move: Guys or Girls?

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Guest Mike Spero

Why does the "modern dating game" have to make everything so ludicrously complicated? You like someone and want to date, so you ask that someone if he or she likes you as well, and also wants to date.

 

Problem, solved.

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Why does the "modern dating game" have to make everything so ludicrously complicated?

 

 

Because 90% of communication is non-verbal, and communicating the right things for any given person is ludicrously complicated because what people want in a mate is complicated too.

 

Also because "how (s)he asks me out" is part of the performance that gets evaluated in whether there's going to be a date #1 or date #2. So, you kind of want to do, you know, not what everyone else is doing so you can stand out.

 

You like someone and want to date, so you ask that someone if he or she likes you as well, and also wants to date.

 

 

 

I never give a straightforward answer to "do you like me." Overt communication is terrible for flirting, which is what date #1 tends to be about (for me). 

 

Maybe you've found a fiancèe who transcends all the silly games of us mere mortals, but from what I can tell, romance just is complicated. All attempts to make a simple rational transaction of it are the result of wishful or naive thinking.

Edited by Yves

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Guest Mike Spero

Because 90% of communication is non-verbal, and communicating the right things for any given person is ludicrously complicated because what people want in a mate is complicated too.

 

Also because "how (s)he asks me out" is part of the performance that gets evaluated in whether there's going to be a date #1 or date #2. So, you kind of want to do, you know, not what everyone else is doing so you can stand out.

 

I never give a straightforward answer to "do you like me." Overt communication is terrible for flirting, which is what date #1 tends to be about (for me). 

 

Maybe you've found a fiancèe who transcends all the silly games of us mere mortals, but from what I can tell, romance just is complicated. All attempts to make a simple rational transaction of it are the result of wishful or naive thinking.

 

I don't go for all of that stuff, and I don't feel like you should have to try and make any kind of planned impression, like a shady car salesman would. To me, you should just be easy-going about it and genuine. Treat it more like a simple question and less like defusing a bomb, haha. If the person wants to be with you, you shouldn't have to follow all these customs and tricks of the trade to convince them to. You're asking for a date, so you should ask the way you naturally would. If you know them well enough to ask to date, they probably know whether or not they'd want to, as well

 

I just don't get people. Not trying to be some hipster-trash, but it all really makes no sense to me. It's the person asking you out, not their "job-interview" for your boyfriend/girlfriend. Love is a simple thing, the way I see it. Less covert ops and more "glaring you in the face"

 

 

The reality is girls are very good at making it known they are interested before guys ask them out. So who really made the first move?   :)

This made my night. Few truer words have ever been spoken

Edited by Mike Spero

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It's the person asking you out, not their "job-interview" for your boyfriend/girlfriend.

 

 

I mean, if you're willing to court and be courted by just anyone, then that's your prerogative. I want to get together with an attractive girl who finds me attractive. But being attractive is hard work, at least for most people. Therefore, I expect to work hard in dating, and I kind of expect my girl to reciprocate the effort.

 

In fact, I take something less to signal a lack of interest. If she doesn't dress up or try to flirt or at the very least to engage me in an interesting time, what that says to me is that my opinion doesn't mean much to her and by implication I don't mean much to her.

 

I don't go for all of that stuff, and I don't feel like you should have to try and make "a good impression", like a shady car salesman. To me, you should just be easy-going about it and genuine

 

 

"You" is a fluid concept.

 

Say I dress like a slob, and I'm comfortable like that. Then I realize, however, that this signals bad things about me--if I can't dress well, maybe I don't have my life together in other ways. So I go to the store and buy some nice clothes. At first I'm not comfortable with the new look, but with some time and practice I get to the point where I can own it. Boom. I'm reinvented.

 

That's not disingenuine "car salesman" talk. That's just trying to make yourself a better you for the girl you're eventually going to find. The same holds true when your goal is to put on a more witty/charming/confident performance. You shouldn't lie about your religion or deeply held beliefs, you know, but a little polishing of the less essential stuff is from my pov kind of a requirement.

Edited by Yves

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Guest Mike Spero

I mean, if you're willing to court and be courted by just anyone, then that's your prerogative. I want to get together with an attractive girl who finds me attractive. But being attractive is hard work, at least for most people. Therefore, I expect to work hard in dating, and I kind of expect my girl to reciprocate the effort.

 

In fact, I take something less to signal a lack of interest. If she doesn't dress up or try to flirt or at the very least to engage me in an interesting time, what that says to me is that my opinion doesn't mean much to her and by implication I don't mean much to her.

 

 

"You" is a fluid concept.

 

Say I dress like a slob, and I'm comfortable like that. Then I realize, however, that this signals bad things about me--if I can't dress well, maybe I don't have my life together in other ways. So I go to the store and buy some nice clothes. At first I'm not comfortable with the new look, but with some time and practice I get to the point where I can own it. Boom. I'm reinvented.

 

That's not disingenuine "car salesman" talk. That's just trying to make yourself a better you for the girl you're eventually going to find. The same holds true when your goal is to put on a more witty/charming/confident performance. You shouldn't lie about your religion or deeply held beliefs, you know, but a little polishing of the less essential stuff is from my pov kind of a requirement.

 

I understand doing your part for the sake of the other person, I was speaking more on "do's and dont's" that don't come natural to you as a person. When it comes to chivalry and romance, and taking the time to be respectfully "well kept" on your dates, that's like you said: a showing of interest.

 

I also don't see a reason to "reinvent yourself". Why change yourself in hopes of finding someone that loves you? In the end, it won't be (the fluid concept of xp) you that they love, but instead who you tried to sell. If dressing slovenly isn't a bad thing to you and something that you prefer, you should have a partner that's willing to accept this about you and not take it as some form of "deal-breaker". For example, I avoid fashion like it's the plague and don't really care about my appearance. So why would I want a partner that requires me to change who I am and become "fashion-savvy" to have their approval, when I could find someone who cared about me for me? If there's something harmful or negative to you as a person, then you should change it not only for the person you may be interested in but for yourself as well. But changing aspects of who you choose to be and quirks isn't something that should be necessary or that I would at all warrant

 

I see where you're coming from on the "self-improvement" part of it. When I was single I couldn't care less about a lot of things I do now to try and make my partner happy. But there's a clear difference between trying to willingly improve yourself almost as a gift for someone you care for and an over-all, mandatory standard for how someone would have to act to be considered for a relationship. Any change should be from a personal desire to be what you see as "a better you" for the person that you wish to be with. Though if that person wouldn't see you as good enough "the way you are", then I'd have obvious doubts about how much that person cared in the first place

 

I guess I feel that there's a huge point of dis-genuineness when it comes to dating, for most people. Not an "I really look like a slob, and would like to look better for my partner :3" but instead a requirement of how much you have to bring to the table before the other person sees that you're a worthy investment. I still see asking people out as a much simpler thing, however. I can't begin to imagine why "Do you like me, on a deeper level?" has to turn into a stress-filled and preemptive job interview type of situation. For those types of scenarios, especially, I would make even more of an effort to come as I am; seeing as how the question is basically: "Am I someone you think you might love, one day?" And if I'm not a sharply-dressed, gelled-hair sporting, chap, then I'm not going to ask such a genuine question dressed like one

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I feel like these are our major sources of disagreement:

 

You believe that being fashion savvy or slovenly or snobbish or rubish or interested in anime or athletic or shy or outgoing are important parts of who a guy is. I believe that they're plastic accidents of character that can be changed without changing "who the guy is."

 

I was shy, bookish, and obsessed with philosophy when I was younger. Now I'm socially aggressive, I spend a lot more time on "practical" skills than with theoretical knowledge, and I'm more interested in how to make friends and influence people than in what Hobbes had to say about human nature. This new self is just as genuine as my old self; it just acts differently.

 

You believe that love is primarily a relation of choice between two deep selves who care deeply for the soul of the other. I believe that love is primarily about attraction as scripted by biological and social norms.

 

I'm just a lot more likely to be interested in a well-dressed and courteous girl who can sing than in a homeless woman with crazy eyes and no discernible skill set. That has nothing to do with anyone's soul and everything to do with performances and signals--and that's OK.

 

Similarly, I expect girls evaluate me the same way, at least subconsciously. Why should K choose me when there are five other guys competing for her attention? I hope it's not some pick-him-out-of-a-hat infatuation gland, because sometimes girls become infatuated with the serial killer on the 6 O'clock news.  I want to be chosen because I've done something to signal real value. To engage in the melodramatic terms of marriage, I want to be the kind of guy K'd want to spend the rest of her life with--without the rose-tinted infatuation glasses.

Edited by Yves

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Guest Mike Spero

I see your point, and I suppose we differ when it comes to the topic. I'm undeniably a "hopeless romantic", while you see love and relationship through more of a realist perspective. If we kept this up, we'd be running in circles all week, haha. I respect your views on things, though honestly I can't quite understand them; and I'm sure you feel the same about mine. Either way, best of luck to you when it comes to finding someone. Maybe she'll make a romantic of you yet :P

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Maybe she'll make a romantic of you yet  :P

 

 

P'shaw! Who says I'm not romantic? Ain't nothing about my philosophy that's anything but doe-eyed twitterpation itself (in a hot-blooded masculine way, of course <3)

Edited by Yves

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Guest Mike Spero

P'shaw! Who says I'm not romantic? Ain't nothing about my philosophy that's anything but doe-eyed twitterpation itself (in a hot-blooded masculine way, of course <3)

Ha, I bet you're a real stag when it comes to the ladies xp

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Not really ;P I try, but I'm naturally ill-suited to it.

 

I'm just saying, with some seriousness, that I don't think that a strategic outlook is particularly unromantic. You can have infatuation and idealism and even a great deal of vulnerable honesty within the parameters of a certain amount of gameyness.  Take any given love story that rings true, and it's probably subject to certain strategic descriptions.

 

Now "parameter" is an incredibly unromantic word, but that's idiosyncratic to me.

Edited by Yves

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Surely it depends on the guy/girl in question?

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Guest JAG

Neither is sinful, neither is culturally unacceptable.

 

My last year of college I went on dates with 14 different girls and 12 of them asked me out as opposed to the other way around.  I make it a rule never to turn down a girl who has that kind of courage.

 

At the same time, if you're a guy, and you like a girl, and you're waiting for her to ask you out, I say grow a pair.

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I don't see a reason why the girl couldn't be the first to make a move. Though I can honestly say I've never done it. lol

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I think it is traditional for the guy to make the first move, however, a girl can if she pleases. I personally think a boy should make the first move, because well if you can't make a first move you may not be willing to share the same love I do. XD

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My last year of college I went on dates with 14 different girls and 12 of them asked me out as opposed to the other way around.  I make it a rule never to turn down a girl who has that kind of courage.

I have a lot of time for this kind of attitude to dating.

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Eh, culturally most men are supposed to, but I don't see how it creates or imposes a problem if the girl does it. 

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I think if you want a move to be made, just go and make it yourself. We spend far too much time waiting for someone else to do things and to change things and to make things happen... yet we are capable of the same things. If you want to kiss the boy, go kiss him. If you want to know how he feels, ask. If you love him, tell him, because your love for him should not depend on his love for you. I understand why girls want guys to make the first move. Our entire lives we have been told that is how it is supposed to be. But women are just as entitled to expressing their feelings as men so why don't we? Because we are scared. Boys are scared too and how they get the nerve to say something first is beyond me... they do it so often and it seems to come so naturally for them yet in reality they are probably panicking. Making the first move sucks because you know rejection is a possible outcome. But I realized that I would rather be rejected than always wonder "what if". 

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Personally, I believe that the guy should do all the initiating.  At first at least. (I also believe in courtship...sooo...lol) 

I think that it's the guy's responsibility to do the pursuing. Girls...let HIM chase you and make a little easier on him. None of that playing "Hard to get" game. It only confuses him. He might like it for a a while, but eventually, he'll move on.  It's the same way with the girl pursuing the guy.  He might be flattered at first, but eventually, he'll get sick of it. He'll get bored.  The chase of the girl/getting her to notice and like him is half the fun of being in a relationship.  My older brothers have told me this all of my life and I definitely see it in my own life.  

 

Girls, let him come to you.  Give him a few little hints by subtly flirting with him, but don't be overwhelmingly obvious and don't do the asking on a date/paying for every date/making the first "move" bit.  That's his job. He enjoys it. Don't take that away from him.

 

Guys, don't be so scared.  Most of the time, we like you just as much as you like us and we're just WAITING for you to ask us on a date.  If oyu get rejected, it hurts.  But, don't let that keep you down forever. If you're too busy sulking about the one irl who said no, you might not ever notice the girl who's been made for you.  

 

Girls and guys, don't rush it.  God's in control and if you try to get into a relationship that's not right, it'll never work out and you'll both end up hurt.  Trust God to bring you your partner in His time and be patient enough to wait.  Because, it's totally worth it. :) 

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Personally, I believe that the guy should do all the initiating.  At first at least. (I also believe in courtship...sooo...lol) 

I think that it's the guy's responsibility to do the pursuing. Girls...let HIM chase you and make a little easier on him. None of that playing "Hard to get" game. It only confuses him. He might like it for a a while, but eventually, he'll move on.  It's the same way with the girl pursuing the guy.  He might be flattered at first, but eventually, he'll get sick of it. He'll get bored.  The chase of the girl/getting her to notice and like him is half the fun of being in a relationship.  My older brothers have told me this all of my life and I definitely see it in my own life.  

 

Girls, let him come to you.  Give him a few little hints by subtly flirting with him, but don't be overwhelmingly obvious and don't do the asking on a date/paying for every date/making the first "move" bit.  That's his job. He enjoys it. Don't take that away from him.

 

Guys, don't be so scared.  Most of the time, we like you just as much as you like us and we're just WAITING for you to ask us on a date.  If oyu get rejected, it hurts.  But, don't let that keep you down forever. If you're too busy sulking about the one irl who said no, you might not ever notice the girl who's been made for you.  

 

Girls and guys, don't rush it.  God's in control and if you try to get into a relationship that's not right, it'll never work out and you'll both end up hurt.  Trust God to bring you your partner in His time and be patient enough to wait.  Because, it's totally worth it. :)

I agree with this. Also I believe courtship is better because in a way, you get to know the person your courting better and you also get to know their family better. Plus, courtship is a more biblical form of dating. Courtship relationships usually end up on the better end more often than dating does.

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Is one specific gender really obliged to make the first move? If you like someone then you should tell them, regardless of what gender you are.

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Girls, let him come to you.  Give him a few little hints by subtly flirting with him, but don't be overwhelmingly obvious and don't do the asking on a date/paying for every date/making the first "move" bit.  That's his job. He enjoys it. Don't take that away from him.

 

See I mainly just don't like this because it expects guys to be mind readers. I too prefer a guy to make the first move, but if I lose out on an opportunity for a good relationship just because the guy is bad at picking up cryptic signals I'm the one whose gonna be kicking myself. 

 

This happened with my last boyfriend. I tried to send signals but he picked up others that I didn't mean to send and thought I wasn't interested. Finally, I just straight up asked him and the poor idiot was super suprised that I liked him back. Said he would have asked me out a good 8 months earlier if he had known. 

 

I just really don't think it's fair to make anyone read your mind. *shrugs* 

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Guest Mike Spero

Is one specific gender really obliged to make the first move? If you like someone then you should tell them, regardless of what gender you are.

I+really+can+t+wait+for+all+this+femenis

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