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I'm surprised no one has started a topic on this yet. 

 

Israel and Gaza having a pretty interesting exchange currently. I see a lot of opinions about this. Some people angry at Israel for killing innocent people, but other people recognizing that Israel is defending its self against an attack. 

 

I honestly didn't know much about the 'cause' for the conflict until this latest escalation - I've been trying to educate myself in my spare time. Some relevant information:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict

 

An interesting "Pro Israel" video (Israeli friend posted on FB):

 

 

 

Not really sure what the Palestinian side of this is at this point. From what I'm told by the Pro Israel side, they just want to kill Jews and have the land that is Israel be theirs. It also appears to be that Israel is 'defending' its self from rockets launched by Palestinian, protected its people, but also recognizing that there's a need to stop the attacks because eventually their people will get injured. 

 

Thoughts? Comments? Antisemitic rage? 

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What about the Palestinian right to defend themselves? Palestine is an occupied territory, so one can make the claim that Palestinian attacks are merely self-defense. In the 1948 Israeli War of Independence, the Palestinian people lost their homes and their land. The Palestinians are basically a discarded people by Jews and Arabs. The land was stolen from them by the Zionist movement, so you could make the claim that Palestinian violence is actually self-defense.

 

The Birth of Israel is nothing heroic. Zionism was founded on the idea of an immigrant population dominating the inhabitants of the land and violently forcing them out. The idea was to create an iron wall to separate the "filthy" Palestinians from the pure Jewish people. 

Edited by Wesker

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A few of my thoughts on the matter:

 

- To stand against Israel is to have accusations of anti-Semitism and pro-terrorism thrown at you. Neither is necessarily the case. I'm neither pro-Israel, nor pro-Hamas. 

 

- Israel is rapidly losing its moral high-ground. For a nation borne out of the horrors of the Second World War, with the history of Judaism as it is, Israel has a lot to answer for. The treatment of civilians in Gaza is an abomination, and the Israeli experience simply does not compare. As Jeremy Bowen said in last week's New Statesman, "it is wrong to suggest that Israeli civilians near Gaza suffer as much as Palestinians. It is much, much worse in Gaza." Casualty rates, at least, attest to this. Deliberate attacks on civilians are unacceptable. 

 

- That being said, Hamas must also be held accountable for its misdeeds. Its international affiliation is with the Muslim Brotherhood (tells you ever so much), and its political bureau has said this year that it will continue to refuse to recognise Israel as a state. Hamas have deliberately targeted civilians as much as Israel have. As much as I can acknowledge that the creation of Israel, the handing over of Mandatory Palestine (yeah, the Brits buggered that one) etc. were not done in a way that would have ensured peace, and that the international community has failed in its duty to Palestinians, war crimes cannot be defended.  

 

- Making this conflict solely about religion won't solve anything. There's a hell of a lot more in play. 

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What about the Palestinian right to defend themselves? Palestine is an occupied territory, so one can make the claim that Palestinian attacks are merely self-defense.

 

I think they are defending themselves, right? I mean it seems both sides are participating in attack / defensive maneuvers. Not excusing anyone's particular behavior in that but it doesn't appear that either side is just 'taking it'. Both are engaged. Correct?

 

The Birth of Israel is nothing heroic. Zionism was founded on the idea of an immigrant population dominating the inhabitants of the land and violently forcing them out. The idea was to create an iron wall to separate the "filthy" Palestinians from the pure Jewish people

 

 

Well in that territory, with the sects of different terrorist cells I don't think you can say that the intent was entirely 'religious' - protecting the jewish population from gentiles, but also protecting the nation from terrorism in general. Just thinking about loud on that though, I don't really know the specifics of the wall or Zionism to speak intelligently here.

 

--

- To stand against Israel is to have accusations of anti-Semitism and pro-terrorism thrown at you. Neither is necessarily the case. I'm neither pro-Israel, nor pro-Hamas.

 

Life sucks, kid. That's kind of how pretty much anything gets boiled down these days. Examples:

-- Dislike Obama? You're racist

-- Don't want gay marriage? You're a homophobe

-- Don't want evolution taught without creation? You're a close minded religious nut

etc.. etc... Middle ground means you're open to having the worst of the opinions heaped on you in droves. 

 

Point being: this is not anything new, and it's going to go on forever because people can't deal with other people just being normal. You need to be hyper-obsessed in one direction or the other. 

 

- Israel is rapidly losing its moral high-ground. For a nation borne out of the horrors of the Second World War, with the history of Judaism as it is, Israel has a lot to answer for. The treatment of civilians in Gaza is an abomination, and the Israeli experience simply does not compare. As Jeremy Bowen said in last week's New Statesman, "it is wrong to suggest that Israeli civilians near Gaza suffer as much as Palestinians. It is much, much worse in Gaza." Casualty rates, at least, attest to this. Deliberate attacks on civilians are unacceptable.

 

Well - the fact of the matter is that without Israel's defensive systems, the Israeli causalities would be just as high as Palestine's right? So Israel may not actually be doing anything "different" than Hamas, except defending it's self from their attacks better. The reasoning I've heard is basically this: both sides use a similar force of power, but one side defends against that force much more efficiently than the other. Is the side who defends better obligated to 'pull back' simply because they happen to be advanced enough to protect themselves? 

 

- That being said, Hamas must also be held accountable for its misdeeds. Its international affiliation is with the Muslim Brotherhood (tells you ever so much), and its political bureau has said this year that it will continue to refuse to recognise Israel as a state. Hamas have deliberately targeted civilians as much as Israel have. As much as I can acknowledge that the creation of Israel, the handing over of Mandatory Palestine (yeah, the Brits buggered that one) etc. were not done in a way that would have ensured peace, and that the international community has failed in its duty to Palestinians, war crimes cannot be defended.

 

- Making this conflict solely about religion won't solve anything. There's a hell of a lot more in play.

 

Agreed! 

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I think they are defending themselves, right? I mean it seems both sides are participating in attack / defensive maneuvers. Not excusing anyone's particular behavior in that but it doesn't appear that either side is just 'taking it'. Both are engaged. Correct?

 

The difference is that within the public discourse we rarely here the phrase "Palestinian right to self-defense". The Palestinians are almost always portrayed as the aggressors. Israeli is almost always portrayed as the defenders. 

 

 

Well in that territory, with the sects of different terrorist cells I don't think you can say that the intent was entirely 'religious' - protecting the jewish population from gentiles, but also protecting the nation from terrorism in general. Just thinking about loud on that though, I don't really know the specifics of the wall or Zionism to speak intelligently here.

 

I was speaking specifically about the creation of the State of Israel.

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I'm 100% pro-Zionist. It is not the ideal solution, viz. a Catholic kingdom in the Holy Land. But it's better than another Arab, Sykes-Picot cookie cutter state where Catholics are treated like dogs.

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Guest JAG

The real problem is neither side can eat bacon or BBQ.

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I wasn't saying that in a waaaah-boo-this-sucks kind of way; I was pointing out that there are reasons why people don't necessarily see this as a one-or-the-other scenario.

Well - the fact of the matter is that without Israel's defensive systems, the Israeli causalities would be just as high as Palestine's right? So Israel may not actually be doing anything "different" than Hamas, except defending it's self from their attacks better. The reasoning I've heard is basically this: both sides use a similar force of power, but one side defends against that force much more efficiently than the other. Is the side who defends better obligated to 'pull back' simply because they happen to be advanced enough to protect themselves?

Israel does have better defence systems, this is true. It may also be true that casualty figures would be more consistent without those defence systems.

However, it's not just casualties (which is why I said at least). Gaza is occupied and blockaded; this is something that's been going on for years. Conditions in Gaza are consistently worse than in South Israel and the Israelis have to realise that their strict boo aide of Gaza does them more harm than good. The more aggressively Israel dictates the lives of Palestinians in Gaza by blockading it, the more damage they do. Hamas becomes a valid opponent to the Israeli regime in the eyes of Palestinians; they become a symbol of defiance against a foreign tyrant, rather than a terrorist organisation. It's easy for Palestinians to stand behind Hamas when they refuse to recognise Israel because to many Palestinians in Gaza, the only Israel they've ever known is one that is aggressive and oppressive.

It's in Israel's best interests to find a peaceful solution to this problem because the more they attack, the more support from the population their opponents receive. But, that isn't to say they should lay down their weapons entirely: any fool knows if they did so, they would cease to exist.

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I believe both are somewhat in the wrong, Israel shouldn't be killing innocents, but The countrys surrounding Israel don't seem to believe in the idea of peace for Israel. Sadly I don't believe we'll see peace in the middle east for a very long time, not until both are willing to talk to each other.

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I believe both are somewhat in the wrong, Israel shouldn't be killing innocents, but The countrys surrounding Israel don't seem to believe in the idea of peace for Israel. Sadly I don't believe we'll see peace in the middle east for a very long time, not until both are willing to talk to each other.

 

I doubt that Israel itself believes in peace. Prime Minister Netanyahu actually believes that there were no Palestinians living in the Holy Land before the creation of the State of Israel. Netanyahu has also stated that he does not believe the Palestinians should ever have their own territory. Israel continually invades the West Bank with its colonies. Nobody hears about the extremist Jewish settler movement in the American media, but they are just as bad as Hamas in my humble opinion. I imagine Israel will keep taking Palestinian land until there is nothing left. Silent genocide.

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I doubt that Israel itself believes in peace. Prime Minister Netanyahu actually believes that there were no Palestinians living in the Holy Land before the creation of the State of Israel. Netanyahu has also stated that he does not believe the Palestinians should ever have their own territory. Israel continually invades the West Bank with its colonies. Nobody hears about the extremist Jewish settler movement in the American media, but they are just as bad as Hamas in my humble opinion. I imagine Israel will keep taking Palestinian land until there is nothing left. Silent genocide.

 

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. They are Arabs. There were no "Palestinians" because there were Arabs and petty feuding tribes. 

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I wasn't saying that in a waaaah-boo-this-sucks kind of way; I was pointing out that there are reasons why people don't necessarily see this as a one-or-the-other scenario.

 

I'm going to post a more complete reply soon but I was driving late last night and thinking about this topic, and I realized my response was really not very nice or what I intended it to be! Sorry - it came off patronizing to you. I feel bad :( 

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I'm going to post a more complete reply soon but I was driving late last night and thinking about this topic, and I realized my response was really not very nice or what I intended it to be! Sorry - it came off patronizing to you. I feel bad :(

 

Don't sweat it, I didn't take it personally; just wanted to clarify that I'm not a whiney four-year-old ;)

 

You're the lesser-spotted Chad, being mean isn't in your nature :P 

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A short vid of the Israeli soldiers: 

 

(I thought i'd put the link only, but it's here..Anyway, it's written:

Published on Jul 22, 2014

July 22, 2014 (Gaza border) - PLEASE SHARE ON FB
Moments before these Israeli soldiers enter Gaza and place their lives at risk for the sake of the Land of Israel, they prepare themselves by singing and dancing songs of faith in the G-d of Israel. They are singing: 
1) "The whole world is a narrow bridge and the main thing is not to be afraid" - a famous rabbinical phrase
2) Serve G-d with joy and come before Him with song

3) "We Have No one Rely Upon Except Our Father In Heaven")

Edited by marni

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I believe both are somewhat in the wrong, Israel shouldn't be killing innocents, but The countrys surrounding Israel don't seem to believe in the idea of peace for Israel. Sadly I don't believe we'll see peace in the middle east for a very long time, not until both are willing to talk to each other.

All I can say is Israel was attacked first and all they did was retaliate but it seems Gaza is taking the fall. Israel hardly receives any hit

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No surprise as the Scripture foretold all of this would occur.

Don't make me dig up old threads where you claimed the Bush-Nazis were about to install marshal law. I haven't forgotten.

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Don't make me dig up old threads where you claimed the Bush-Nazis were about to install marshal law. I haven't forgotten.

Dig it up, because you're either remembering it wrong, misunderstanding a post in the past, or thinking of the wrong person.

Edited by God-Sent

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The real problem is neither side can eat bacon or BBQ.

LOL THAT is the source of unrest in the Middle East! They're all grouchy from lack of pork

 

But seriously, God clearly says anyone against Israel is against Him, and repeatedly warns against attacking Israel. Is Israel 100% right about every point? I don't think so, but Palestinians aren't helping matters by bombing Israel either. Israel is God's chosen nation. To attack it or disparage it is wrong.

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LOL THAT is the source of unrest in the Middle East! They're all grouchy from lack of pork

 

But seriously, God clearly says anyone against Israel is against Him, and repeatedly warns against attacking Israel. Is Israel 100% right about every point? I don't think so, but Palestinians aren't helping matters by bombing Israel either. Israel is God's chosen nation. To attack it or disparage it is wrong.

That's why the Lord always fight for them. Try comparing the deaths in Israel to theirs there is a huge difference

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Guest JAG

That's why the Lord always fight for them. Try comparing the deaths in Israel to theirs there is a huge difference

 

Unless Israel departs from Him - then He lets Babylon drag them away.  Israel needs to come to an awaking of the gospel.

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Unless Israel departs from Him - then He lets Babylon drag them away.  Israel needs to come to an awaking of the gospel.

True, but it is only for a season. He will never fully turn His back away from them for the sake of Abraham, and their forefathers. The time of the Gentiles is possibly drawing near it's end.

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