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Confidence

Deutronomy 22:5

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Guest JAG

We all know what it says. So the question is are we following it and are we supposed to follow it?

 

I think this would fall under Romans 14.  At the very least, it's a cultural thing.  The clothes the Jews wore are different than the clothes we wear.  No matter what, even if you say women shouldn't wear pants - their pants are still very different then what's considered 'men's pants' in our society.

 

Or perhaps you're talking about drag?

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I think this would fall under Romans 14.  At the very least, it's a cultural thing.  The clothes the Jews wore are different than the clothes we wear.  No matter what, even if you say women shouldn't wear pants - their pants are still very different then what's considered 'men's pants' in our society.

 

Male and female jeans are essentially the same.

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Male and female jeans are essentially the same.

Essentially yes. In the details however they are completely different. Guys Jeans have pockets to Narnia in which they can fit a puppy if they so pleased. Girls jeans can't even hold a phone. 

 

I have to agree with Jag. It's probably cultural.

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Guest Mike Spero

I don't cross-dress, but of course it should be followed. The Bible isn't a suggestion or "design your own adventure!" book :/

 

*long sigh

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I opposed cross-dressing before I knew what this verse was, so I'm pleased to find biblical justification :3

Edited by Iuppiter
Please no cursing on the forum

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Well it's subjective. Like when my grandparents were young it was unheard of for a woman to wear pants. And when my parents were young only women wore earrings. But now both of those things are unisex. So ho's to say what's a man's garment and what's a woman's because fashion changes drastically fairly quickly.

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Guest Mike Spero

Well it's subjective. Like when my grandparents were young it was unheard of for a woman to wear pants. And when my parents were young only women wore earrings. But now both of those things are unisex. So ho's to say what's a man's garment and what's a woman's because fashion changes drastically fairly quickly.

This is the one place where I would agree that culture does effect morality in the least. If it's considered "just for women", whether it's stylistic or not, men are not to wear it. The same goes visa versa, obviously

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This is the one place where I would agree that culture does effect morality in the least. If it's considered "just for women", whether it's stylistic or not, men are not to wear it. The same goes visa versa, obviously

 

Not even for fun on Halloween?

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We all know what it says. So the question is are we following it and are we supposed to follow it?

Yes, we are and it was not merely cultural. I have a hard time seeing how this will be spun a s a cultural law." I also will argue that those who use this ignore the fact that the law was given by God, not a culture, therefore it must either be refuted due to whether, by nature, it is a ceremonial law or not. It is a moral command based upon the divine Creation order as the following quote explains more clearly.

 

This admonition most probably deals with the mandate to maintain the distinctions between male and female functions and roles. "Cross-dressing" seems to be the issue here. The man is not to be feminine, and the woman is not to be masculine. Neither is to assume the manerisms and role of the other. Also, the created order distinguished between male and female very clearly and adopting the clothes of the opposite sex would blur this line and might even encourage homosexuality.

 

The same Hebrew word translated detests (to ebah, lit., ”a detestable thing;" kjv, ”an abomination“) is used to describe God’s view of homosexuality (Lev. 18:22; 20:13). Also some evidence exists that transvestism may have been connected with the worship of pagan deities. Since this law was related to the divine order of Creation and since God detests anyone who does this, believers today also ought to heed this command."

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/women-should-not-wear-mens-clothes

I feel that that sums it up nicely.

Edited by God-Sent

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My two cents: the "it's cultural" argument logically then says that we can throw out the entire Bible, so... that doesn't work.

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My two cents: the "it's cultural" argument logically then says that we can throw out the entire Bible, so... that doesn't work.

So do you believe that women should never cut their hair and always have their hair covered? When was the last time you had pork chops?

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Guest JAG

My two cents: the "it's cultural" argument logically then says that we can throw out the entire Bible, so... that doesn't work.

 

No, once again, read Romans 14.

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I believe the New Testament was very explicit in what things changed from the Old Law to the New Law, and that included being able to eat pork chops.

 

So do you believe that women should never cut their hair and always have their hair covered? When was the last time you had pork chops?

 

There is a very strong argument for this in 1 Corinthians 11, but I am willing to chalk that up to each woman's person preference; but I do think men should have much shorter hair then women.  However, there comes a time where a woman's hair is a migraine and a half and needs to be shortened.   Likewise, have you ever heard of the Messianic Jews?

 

 

No, once again, read Romans 14.

 

This is where the cultural argument fails.  Women's and men's clothing varies from country to country, and I think that in this respect the "it's cultural" thing is valid.  However, we are presented with a false dichotomy here.  And here I present:

 

Essentially yes. In the details however they are completely different. Guys Jeans have pockets to Narnia in which they can fit a puppy if they so pleased. Girls jeans can't even hold a phone. 

 

I have to agree with Jag. It's probably cultural.

 

Showing that there are distinguishing differences still present, such as the fact that men's and women's clothes button the opposite way.

Well it's subjective. Like when my grandparents were young it was unheard of for a woman to wear pants. And when my parents were young only women wore earrings. But now both of those things are unisex. So who's to say what's a man's garment and what's a woman's because fashion changes drastically fairly quickly.

 

Things changed as a result of moral depravity.  The push that began 100-years ago by women to be equal to men led to today where men's and women's clothing are sometimes indistinguishable.  The people that led (and now lead) this charge are mostly atheists, usually vicious haters of Christianity.  Therefore a I believe that what a woman wears can change based on her culture, but she should still look like a woman.  Here's where I present:

Edited by AlexFL93

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No, once again, read Romans 14.

That passage is a red herring. It is referring to dietary and ceremonial laws within the Tanak. I would like to see how you attempt to categorize the verse in discussion as either of those two. The law itself is not one of culture, but of universal principle.

 

A man's item shall not be on a woman, and a man shall not wear a woman's garment; whoever does such a thing is an abhorrence unto Adonai.

   — Deuteronomy 22:5

 

There are three clauses in this passage.

(1) A man's item shall not be on a woman;

(2) and a man shall not wear a woman's garment;

(3) whoever does such a thing is an abhorrence unto Adonai. (Rabbi Tilsen)

 

These three clauses are in regards to universal principles as opposed to cultural. The cultural level would be based upon what the Jews would have held as being "woman's clothes" and "men's clothes" as each society varies on that level. The problem with modern society is that it is increasingly blurring the lines of male and female, masculinity and femininity, over time. This will become more progressive as the feminist and homosexual movements continue to attempt to blur gender identity. Thus you have the following quote:

 

I do not know of any inherent, contextual, or remote contextual restriction placed on the general teaching of Deuteronomy 22: 5. The same principle is seen in the New Testament. Paul wrote: "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" (1 Cor. 11: 14). Clear distinction is made between the domestic roles of men and women (cp. Eph. 5: 22 ff.). Sharp differentiation is also seen between the function of men and women in religious matters. For instance, men are to be the leaders in the public worship of God (I Tim. 2: 8-15). Also, men are to be the elders and preachers among God's people (1 Tim. 3: 1-7; ***. 1: 5-11, 1 Tim. 2: 12-15). The movement, then, to make a gender free society is in opposition to the plain teaching of God's word"

Edited by God-Sent

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Finishing my post...

 

 

Essentially yes. In the details however they are completely different. Guys Jeans have pockets to Narnia in which they can fit a puppy if they so pleased. Girls jeans can't even hold a phone. 

 

I have to agree with Jag. It's probably cultural.

 

We reach the conclusion that women should look decidedly feminine.  That doesn't mean I am demanding them to wear skirts, but they are better off wearing jeans that no one could confuse for men's.  However, there comes the line where "culture" actually means "defying God," and I don't know if we are there yet.  You could argue some facets of society, but I don't think this one...

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Guest JAG
The cultural level would be based upon what the Jews would have held as being "woman's clothes" and "men's clothes" as each society varies on that level.

 

 

This is what I wrote in my opening response, I don't think we necessarily disagree. I first said that no matter what our clothing is going to be different from what the Jews wore - thus there's no way to apply this verse literally when it comes to specific garment.  I then gave an example with pants. In our culture, women wearing pants is normal - their pants are just feminine compares to men's pants.  We can apply this verse to our culture in this way. 

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This is what I wrote in my opening response, I don't think we necessarily disagree. I first said that no matter what our clothing is going to be different from what the Jews wore - thus there's no way to apply this verse literally when it comes to specific garment.  I then gave an example with pants. In our culture, women wearing pants is normal - their pants are just feminine compares to men's pants.  We can apply this verse to our culture in this way. 

 

I know you weren't responding to me, but I think you, JAG, and I are on the same page... we just skipped different pages to get there.

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Guest Mike Spero

Not even for fun on Halloween?

Call me radical, but I'd say no. It's not a huge deal, but if it was brought to full attention that it would be questioned, I'd say conviction would make it a bigger issue

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Not even for fun on Halloween?

I would have to debate whether Christians should participate in the practices of Halloween before I'd even consider answering that one.

Edited by God-Sent

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