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Noel 1525

Salvation: Faith alone or Faith + Works

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You will know them by their fruit. If you believe in Jesus, but continue to intentionally do bad, you probably weren't saved or transformed to begin with.

 

1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." At what point does a set of sin become evidence of not being elect?

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1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." At what point does a set of sin become evidence of not being elect?

 

We could have this discussion. But the following will happen:

 

1). I will post the contradictions of the Bible, demonstrating that the Bible by itself is a flawed book, and appeal to the Seventh Day Adventist interpretation.

2). Someone here who I won't name will take me on, using the Bible, and we will go in circles for eternity.

 

I take the stance that without the Church, we are lost on what's what. So I will just pull up Seventh Day Adventist religious lessons, and they will probably pretty much agree with what I said.

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We could have this discussion. But the following will happen:

 

1). I will post the contradictions of the Bible, demonstrating that the Bible by itself is a flawed book, and appeal to the Seventh Day Adventist interpretation.

2). Someone here who I won't name will take me on, using the Bible, and we will go in circles for eternity.

 

I take the stance that without the Church, we are lost on what's what. So I will just pull up Seventh Day Adventist religious lessons, and they will probably pretty much agree with what I said.

That's such a horrific approach to the Bible. Why even bother with it? Why not just throw out the Bible and devote thyself to SDA websites run by uneducated but clever people?

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That's such a horrific approach to the Bible. Why even bother with it? Why not just throw out the Bible and devote thyself to SDA websites run by uneducated but clever people?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the SDA hold to an authoritative view of Scripture?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the SDA hold to an authoritative view of Scripture?

 

They do, but they believe the SDAs first have to get a proper understanding of the Bible and then read through the whole thing. Kind of.

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We could have this discussion. But the following will happen:

 

1). I will post the contradictions of the Bible, demonstrating that the Bible by itself is a flawed book, and appeal to the Seventh Day Adventist interpretation.

2). Someone here who I won't name will take me on, using the Bible, and we will go in circles for eternity.

 

I take the stance that without the Church, we are lost on what's what. So I will just pull up Seventh Day Adventist religious lessons, and they will probably pretty much agree with what I said.

I don't think that you can properly debate anything here without the bible. As Nicene Nerd said, that sound's like a horrible  approach to what the bible is my friend. 

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I don't think that you can properly debate anything here without the bible. As Nicene Nerd said, that sound's like a horrible  approach to what the bible is my friend. 

 

But the real question is, just how do we use the Bible? Do we just start taking verses out of context and applying them to our every day lives? What's the proper way to use the Bible?

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But the real question is, just how do we use the Bible? Do we just start taking verses out of context and applying them to our every day lives? What's the proper way to use the Bible?

 

Study it in its historical, linguistic, theological, and canonical context. It's not the hopeless endeavor you make it out to be, even if that's always a convenient way out for "one true Church" proponents.

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How then do we deal with all the errors in the Bible? http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

 

I would write off a large number of those as the result of people giving up on reading comprehension as soon as the Bible gets involved. Among other problems. Seriously, if a similar list was made about most other books, it would be laughed away.

 

And once you've weeded away all of the ones which reflect no level of understanding at either the hermeneutical or theological levels, then there's so little left that what remains says almost nothing of any problem to using the Scriptures as an authority independently of one particular church.

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I think we need to drop saying that I don't follow the Bible though. Chances are, I will read through the whole Bible again, decide that the SDA is closest to being correct, and then go with that. The theology surrounding SDA will then give me an even better understanding.

 

The only time I don't follow the Bible, is when I need some serious spiritual help, to the point where I just don't want to follow it.

 

Maybe I went too far saying that the Bible is a flawed book. I could have worded that WAY better.

Edited by Mu_

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I think we need to drop saying that I don't follow the Bible though.

No one has said anything like this so far.

Chances are, I will read through the whole Bible again, decide that the SDA is closest to being correct, and then go with that. The theology surrounding SDA will then give me an even better understanding.

If that happens, it means you've read most of it wrong.

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If that happens, it means you've read most of it wrong.

 

You're funny. :laugh:

 

Let's get back on-topic though. Before T.O.W.R. comes in and royally scolds us.

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James' sayings on salvation falls into a different dispensation. In this one, faith alone saves a person, and it does not alter his or her free will. Good works should be used to glorify God, but they still can't save you.

I have a question to all those who believe in faith plus works. In sola fide, faith in Christ's death as an atonement for our sins is what saves you. But in faith plus works you put faith on yourself for salvation. So if it is not to atone all of our sins, what did Jesus exactly die for?

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James' sayings on salvation falls into a different dispensation.

I think this is a fundamentally dangerous and awful idea. Separating Christ's time from the time of His body is essentially to sever Christ and His body.

I have a question to all those who believe in faith plus works. In sola fide, faith in Christ's death as an atonement for our sins is what saves you. But in faith plus works you put faith on yourself for salvation. So if it is not to atone all of our sins, what did Jesus exactly die for?

No one who believes that works contribute to justification do not also believe that Jesus' death atoned for all their sins, and nor do they place faith in themselves, for they affirm that all good works are created by the Holy Spirit.

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Premise: Faith is a necessary and sufficient condition of salvation.

Evidence: The book of Romans generally. cf. chapters 3-5 specifically.

 

Premise: Salvation consists in part of being or becoming someone who does good works.

Evidence: John 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." More generally, Jesus makes love of God and neighbor the purpose of both this life and the life hereafter, and that necessitates our regeneration from sin to sinlessness. Reviewing the wealth of evidence the Bible presents on this point could fill books, so I'll keep this point short for now and elaborate on this specifically in later posts.

 

Consequent: Faith is a necessary and sufficient condition of sanctification (becoming someone who does good works).

Evidence: Substitution.

 

Consequent: Someone who does not experience sanctification does not have faith.

Evidence: Modus Tollens

 

In other words, to reject a movement towards good works is to reject faith. To reject faith is to reject salvation. Therefore, to reject good works is to reject salvation.

 

Whether we have the freedom to choose good works or whether they're thrust upon us by an omnipotent universe is entirely beside the point. 

Edited by Chris-M

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