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Nicene Nerd

The Immaculate Conception, And Other Mariology

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Psalm 81:9

There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god.

 

 

I doubt any of you will see it this way, but the worship of Mary is just such a worship of a: "strange God"

Though the blessed mother of Christ she may be, she is not equal to God, and should not in any way be worshiped.

 

Can you prove that the same thing is going on in Catholicism as was here? (I actually think it is for some doctrines, but you should still prove it.)

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Psalm 81:9

There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god.

I doubt any of you will see it this way, but the worship of Mary is just such a worship of a: "strange God"

Though the blessed mother of Christ she may be, she is not equal to God, and should not in any way be worshiped.

Nobody worships Mary. Not Catholics, not Orthodox, not anyone.

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Um, praying to someone and exalting them as "the mother of God" is definitely making them a deity. 

 

You don't pray to someone who can't answer prayers, and only God answers prayers.

And if you say that she doesn't answer them, just takes them to Jesus, then how about this verse:

 

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

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Um, praying to someone and exalting them as "the mother of God" is definitely making them a deity.

You don't pray to someone who can't answer prayers, and only God answers prayers.

And if you say that she doesn't answer them, just takes them to Jesus, then how about this verse:

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Do you ever ask people to pray for you? It's supposed to be the same basic concept, but better because Mary and the saints are already righteous in heaven with Jesus. Is not the fervent prayer of the righteous quite effective?

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1 John 4:3

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

1 John 2:22

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

 

2 John 1:7

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

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Ok, I see your point about asking for a saint to pray for you, but it does seem rather ridiculous to ask for a human, (even one that is now perfect) to pray for you, when you could ask for God himself to intercede on your behalf.  But you can ask for someone to pray for you if  you want I suppose.

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Matthew 15:6b-9

Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 [Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

I can quote scripture out of context too:

 

2 Thessalonians 2: 15 "So then brothers stand firm and old to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

 

1 Cor. 11: 2 "Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you."

 

2 Thessalonians 3:6 'Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us."

 

 

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@Zabby: Yeah, but you see, all of those "traditions" you just mentioned were the ones taught in the BIBLE. and the verse I mentioned (btw, forgive me for not citing the whole chapter) was condemning the "traditions of MEN" not the traditions taught in the Bible.

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@Zabby: Yeah, but you see, all of those "traditions" you just mentioned were the ones taught in the BIBLE. and the verse I mentioned (btw, forgive me for not citing the whole chapter) was condemning the "traditions of MEN" not the traditions taught in the Bible.

Proof?

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There are scarce records of any traditions being performed by the early church beyond the sacraments of baptism and communion.

 

As a side note: There are no "objective traditions." All traditions have been started by men, and were then incorporated into the Bible. It is in every way impossible to prove God ever spoke anything to anyone about a single thing that should be done in such a way or at such a time. The Occam's razor of the situation would suggest that men created traditions, which then became sacred, as is the case with every other world religion.

That is to say "Traditions of men" turn into "Traditions of the Bible" and to bifurcate is naive. 

 

 

Did God not institute Passover, the Feast of Booths, The Feast of Tabernacles, The Lord's Supper (do this in remembrance of me)?

Did He not institute the traditional Saccrifices that have since bean repealed by Hebrews?

Did God not institute the tradtion of resting on the Seventh day of the week?

 

Or were all of these simply: " 'Tradtions of men' turned into 'Traditions of the Bible' " ?

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If I may give my 2¢. Jesus is the New Adam. As Adam was disobedient by eating the apple with Eve, Jesus "was obedient to the point of death, death on a Cross" as St. Paul puts it. Let's look at Genesis 3:15. This is something that we call the "Protoevagellium", or "First Gospel". Remember that verse, after Adam and Eve accuse Satan of tricking them. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman. Between your offspring and hers. He (the offspring of the woman) will strike at your head while you strike at His heel." The Blessed Mother is the New Eve, in that she was obedient to God when He sent the Arcangel Gabriel to deliver His message at the Annunciation. Through her "Fiat" (meaning "So be it"), Mary submitted to the Will of God was obedient that will. Jesus is the ideal man and Mary the ideal woman. If Mary and Jesus committed sin, then they would be cooperators with Satan rather his enemies. This is all from the Catechism and from my Theology notes, by the way. This is also why the Blessed Mother is often times pictured bear foot and stepping on a snake; because she is crushing Satan.

Also, notice how in the Gospel of Luke, Gabriel greets Mary with "Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you!" We are not full of grace. Mary is, not us. Jesus obviously doesn't need grace as, well, He's the Only Begotten Son of God.

Another argument I've heard is that Our Lady is the Ark of the Covenant. Think back to the Old Testament for a bit with me. Remember how the Israelite people believed that God's presence dwelt with them in the Ark of the Covenant? Mary is the Ark of the Covenant because Jesus, who is God, dwelt in her womb. Ive heard it said that as the Word of God was on stone tablets in the Ark, the Word made Flesh dwelt in Mary. Because remember the beginning of John's Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word..." Also, the Ark of the Covenant was so holy that a man was struck down by God for touching it. That's how sacred it was. That people were not worthy to touch it. If Mary is the new Ark, then wouldn't make sense that Mary be as holy as the Ark? The total opposite of holiness is sin. If we sin, we are not holy as we very well know. How can something that carries the presence of God be impure? It can't. If the Ark that carried God's Law was that sacred to the Hebrew people, then just imagine how holy our Blessed Mother is as she carried the real presence of God.

I don't know about all of you, but I really love Marian spirituality. There's just so much beauty and depth to it all! I know one of my upcoming Theology lectures will be on just the Blessed Mother. To all Catholics, if you are ever in trouble ask our Mom for help! Pray the Rosary, just talk to her, do something! God the Father wouldnt gove us the gift of Our Lady's intercession if He didn't want us to look to her for help. I know I'd be more of a mess than I already am without the help and protection of our Blessed Mother.

Our Lady of Perpetual Help, pray for us.

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"God was only talking about the traditions given in the Bible."

 

"How did people know they were going to be in the Bible before there was a Bible...?"

 

"Because God inspired them to know."

 

I sure wish God would inspire more people closer to us in history ;~;!

Edited by Chris-M

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I sure wish God would inspire more people closer to us in history ;~;!

Amen. Although, we do have the saints who wrote some pretty profound things even if you aren't Catholic.

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CTF and I no longer speak the same language :'D

GATHER YE ROSEBUDS WHILE YE MAY, FRIENDS, for someday your sense of sarcasm will run dry.

Edited by Chris-M

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This is without considerable standing both scientifically and Biblically.

 

Most of your argument around pro-immaculate conception deals with the idea that Mary’s blood flowed through Jesus’ veins. Well, this is not correct scientifically. The mother sends nutrient-rich blood to the placenta (Big sack which feeds the fetus), the placenta then sends those nutrients to the baby via the umbilical cord. Never once does blood from the mother enter into the baby, the placenta only allows the nutrients to flow through. If you think this is wrong, then consider this. How could people develop different blood types if they had the mother’s blood in them during development? In your logic, shouldn’t we all be the same blood type?(Yes, there are cases of minute amounts of the mother’s blood leaking into the fetus. However, this isn’t universal and God could have simply decided to make sure it didn’t happen.)

Numerous times in the Bible, Mary has referred to Jesus as her Savior. Now, if she was without sin, she would not need a Savior. Also, why would God make an exception to the sin heritage? That seems to both contradict with the numerous verses saying that all have sinned and Adam’s punishment in the Garden. And why would God gives one person immunity and not others, that seems pretty unfair. Nothing supports Mary being sinless Biblically. 

Honestly, I think that most of these “traditions” are just trying to simplify God, bring him down to our level of understanding. God is omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresence; in comparison, we are below bacteria in our understanding. We are not worthy of anything from him, yet he loved us enough to suffer and die for us. And yet we repay him by viewing him as limited and understandable by man. No one can fully understand God, if someone fully knew God, then they would be God. God created the laws of nature, the laws of the universe, he can end us all with a single thought. Putting restraints on God, thinking that we are high enough to understand him, that, is an outright heresy to God, and you are lucky he doesn’t strike you down immediately. The next time you want to limit God by using our below-diminutive knowledge of “science”, or your believed "understanding" of how sin is passed down, remember who you’re dealing with.

Edited by PlasmaHam

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Numerous times in the Bible, Mary has referred to Jesus as her Savior. Now, if she was without sin, she would not need a Savior.

As much as I disagree with Catholic Mariology, you've missed something here. The idea of a sinless Mary usually involves her being "pre-saved," as it were, through Jesus. It's not that she wasn't naturally sinful, but that from conception full benefits from Christ were applied to keep her from sin, at least to the extent that I understand the position.

And why would God gives one person immunity and not others, that seems pretty unfair.

This is one thing that particularly concerns me. As I've said before, this kind of view of Mary seems quasi-Calvinistic.

Putting restraints on God, thinking that we are high enough to understand him, that, is an outright heresy to God, and you are lucky he doesn’t strike you down immediately. The next time you want to limit God by using our below-diminutive knowledge of “science”, or that you understand how sin is passed down, remember who you’re dealing with.

I legitimately have no idea what this has to do with anything in this thread.

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that seems pretty unfair.

 

 

Explain it how you may, it's pretty hard to describe the world without including what looks like moral luck. Sometimes people live their whole lives without hearing the Gospel, sometimes people die when they're two years old, and sometimes people live lives without many serious challenges. C'est la vie.

 

That doesn't mean that I'm a Calvinist who thinks God sets people up to fail. It does mean, however, that anti-Calvinists have to deal with moral luck. If God can save aborted babies in a special way, it doesn't seem impossible that He could offer the mother of God a special route to salvation.

Edited by Chris-M

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I legitimately have no idea what this has to do with anything in this thread.

 

Its just my opinion on most Christian "traditions" people have made up over the years, including Mariology. Towards the end of it, I kinda got carried away in the moment, so apologies if it got too off subject. Nevertheless, I stand by it and support it.

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