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Pope Francis attacks the Curia

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Vatican City, Dec 24, 2014 / 11:04 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Francis issued a strong message to members of the curia this week, warning them against careerism and urging them to live the reality of the priesthood – as servants.

“Sometimes,” the Pope said Dec. 22, curia members “feel themselves 'lords of the manor' – superior to everyone and everything,” forgetting that their lives should be rooted in humility and generosity.

The pontiff made his remarks Monday during a traditional exchange of Christmas greetings with Vatican officials. During his message, he delved quickly into listing out the numerous signs of “sickness” in the curia and what impedes its ability to service the wider mission of the Church.

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/you-are-not-lords-of-the-manor-pope-francis-tough-words-to-curia-12908/

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I read this! I think it is very important that someone did this. To a degree hearing about Bishops with mansions etc reminds me of the days of St. Catherine of Siena. the clergy has become greedy and immoral, and needs to refocus on the life they chose, one of God! I especially found his comment on Spiritual Alzheimer's to be of importance. It is true some have forgotten their vocations, and are using their priesthood for power and wealth.

I give Pope Francis applause for this.

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Guest Mike Spero

I have to say, despite having disagreements with Catholicism, the new Pope rocks his socks

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5oef4x.jpg

 

There are times when I feel Pope Francis has a private bet with himself on how fast he can drive conservative and traditional Catholics to sedevacantism or Orthodoxy. This is one of those times.

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Is there a Catholic subtext that makes this so terrible? My understanding, as a non-catholic, is that he is simply attempting to encourage priests and spiritual authorities to keep their focus on what is most important, not succumbing to improper motives.

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5oef4x.jpg

 

There are times when I feel Pope Francis has a private bet with himself on how fast he can drive conservative and traditional Catholics to sedevacantism or Orthodoxy. This is one of those times.

 

 

Do not be deceived by the tricks of the media. The only time the Holy Father's words make the news is when he is saying something critical about the Church. The media ignores all the good things he has to say about our Mother Church. 

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Has Pope Francis ever said or done anything to put pressure on Islamic countries? Or otherwise done anything to support persecuted Christians?

 

I'd give him some more respect if he did that.

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Do not be deceived by the tricks of the media. The only time the Holy Father's words make the news is when he is saying something critical about the Church. The media ignores all the good things he has to say about our Mother Church. 

 

Seeing as the news agency I linked is the Catholic News Agency I tend to think they will represented him accurately.

 

Has Pope Francis ever said or done anything to put pressure on Islamic countries? Or otherwise done anything to support persecuted Christians?

 

I'd give him some more respect if he did that.

 

Well that's an awfully silly and irrelevant question, but since you mention it...

 

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/12/23/pope_writes_christmas_letter_to_middle_east%E2%80%99s_christians/1115787

Pope writes Christmas letter to Middle East’s persecuted Christians

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/pope-francis-we-won-t-resign-ourselves-middle-east-without

Pope Francis: 'We Won't Resign Ourselves to a Middle East Without Christians'

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/pope-francis-displaced-iraqis-christmas-2014122514514864304.html

Pope phones displaced Iraqis for Christmas

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/30/pope-francis-patriarch-middle-east-persecution-christians

Pope and patriarch condemn Middle East persecution of Christians

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/12/25/pope-celebrates-christmas-eve-mass-and-calls-iraqi-refugees/

Pope Francis celebrates Christmas, wishes peace for Mideast

 

http://www.romereports.com/pg158542-pope-francis-denounces-oedaily-persecution-suffered-by-christians-in-the-middle-east-en

Pope Francis denounces “daily persecution” suffered by Christians in the Middle East

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/12/23/pope-francis-muslim-christian-middle-east-christmas/20816259/

Pope challenges Muslims to condemn violence

 

etc, etc.

 

I am sure Rome is waiting anxiously for your positive feedback.

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I don't think Pope Francis did anything wrong! I know in MY CHURCH, there is seriously cliques like crazy, including with the STAFF! That should never happen in Church. I think Pope Francis was speaking accurately of what the Church is becoming. He had to demote a German Bishop for having MILLION DOLLAR RENOVATIONS on his house! Does that sound OKAY? Pope Francis is simply DOING WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!

SO I SAY:

AMEN!

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Guest Mike Spero

I don't think Pope Francis did anything wrong! I know in MY CHURCH, there is seriously cliques like crazy, including with the STAFF! That should never happen in Church. I think Pope Francis was speaking accurately of what the Church is becoming. He had to demote a German Bishop for having MILLION DOLLAR RENOVATIONS on his house! Does that sound OKAY? Pope Francis is simply DOING WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!

SO I SAY:

AMEN!

20131021040341162.jpg

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I don't think Pope Francis did anything wrong! I know in MY CHURCH, there is seriously cliques like crazy, including with the STAFF! That should never happen in Church. I think Pope Francis was speaking accurately of what the Church is becoming. He had to demote a German Bishop for having MILLION DOLLAR RENOVATIONS on his house! Does that sound OKAY? Pope Francis is simply DOING WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!

SO I SAY:

AMEN!

 

The problem with this, I think, is that it just harks back to a continuous trend which has existed since Vatican II: a neo-Protestant conception of aesthetics and humility, and the degradation of the Catholic Church's view of self. Prior to Vatican II, the Catholic Church was marked by a sense of its own superiority and its place in the world. In the new foreword to Fr Louis Merton's The Seven Storey Mountain, an anecdote is mentioned about the Roman Catholic bishop of Cork in the 1900s, who upon informing his opposite number in the Church of Ireland had passed away remarked "Now he knows who the real Bishop is." While perhaps excessively acidic, this illustrates nicely the attitude of the Church prior to the Council. The Catholic Church was the visible foundation of God's work, the only path to salvation (and, although as I've explained elsewhere this teaching remains post-Council, the pre-Counciliar interpretation was much more strict), and furthermore was entirely aware of it's own glory. Our bishops lived in palaces, and we were okay with it because where else would be suitable for such a figure?

 

With Vatican II however, this changed. With the influence of the nouvelle théologie of persons such as Yves Congar and Hans Kung, liturgically simplistic and unabashedly Protestant in its orientation; the idea that "simple is better, humility is piety" caught on. The resulting desacralisation of the Church and her liturgy, and the horrifying after-affects which occurred in the period immediately following VII, was thankfully later stemmed with the papacies of St John Paul II and then more significantly with our beloved Pope emeritus; but Francis' papacy has revived it. If Pope Benedict marked an apogee in post-Council dignity and aesthetics, in a restoration of not just the Papal office but all offices of the Church to their rightful splendor, then Francis' papacy has thus far been the nadir. Pope Francis, in his excessive humility, degrades the See of St Peter and buys into the original Protestant methodology behind the kind of simplicity he's pushing: by lowering the Catholic Church and stripping her of her grandeur, she becomes just another faceless denomination. Just another four white walls.  

 

That's not right. The Catholic Church is not just another denomination. The  Catholic Church is nothing less than the visible representation of the Kingdom of God on earth. Christ our King, the Pope as His Vicar, and the Cardinals and Bishops as His Princes. The Pope is Father of Kings and Princes, Ruler of the World, whether he likes it or not, and is the representative of Christ on Earth. As a man, Jesus was a simple carpenter's son but in Heaven he is our Eternal King, Lord and Master of the Universe. As the representation of the Kingdom of God, the Church and her princes and so forth deserve all the splendor of the Earth, because anything else is beneath their station. Do we begrudge the President his magnificent mansion, his finely-tailored clothes, his limousines and Air Force One? Of course we don't; because he's the President of the United States, one of the most powerful men on earth, and he shouldn't have to lump it in a Best Western or hitch a ride in a Ford Focus. Humility is important for everyone, because the essence of humility is knowing your place before God. But it is not the be-all-and-end-all of piety, and we need to stop acting like it is; and we especially need to stop acting like our curates and prelates and popes need rags. They need the opposite.

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The problem with this, I think, is that it just harks back to a continuous trend which has existed since Vatican II: a neo-Protestant conception of aesthetics and humility, and the degradation of the Catholic Church's view of self. Prior to Vatican II, the Catholic Church was marked by a sense of its own superiority and its place in the world. In the new foreword to Fr Louis Merton's The Seven Storey Mountain, an anecdote is mentioned about the Roman Catholic bishop of Cork in the 1900s, who upon informing his opposite number in the Church of Ireland had passed away remarked "Now he knows who the real Bishop is." While perhaps excessively acidic, this illustrates nicely the attitude of the Church prior to the Council. The Catholic Church was the visible foundation of God's work, the only path to salvation (and, although as I've explained elsewhere this teaching remains post-Council, the pre-Counciliar interpretation was much more strict), and furthermore was entirely aware of it's own glory. Our bishops lived in palaces, and we were okay with it because where else would be suitable for such a figure?

 

With Vatican II however, this changed. With the influence of the nouvelle théologie of persons such as Yves Congar and Hans Kung, liturgically simplistic and unabashedly Protestant in its orientation; the idea that "simple is better, humility is piety" caught on. The resulting desacralisation of the Church and her liturgy, and the horrifying after-affects which occurred in the period immediately following VII, was thankfully later stemmed with the papacies of St John Paul II and then more significantly with our beloved Pope emeritus; but Francis' papacy has revived it. If Pope Benedict marked an apogee in post-Council dignity and aesthetics, in a restoration of not just the Papal office but all offices of the Church to their rightful splendor, then Francis' papacy has thus far been the nadir. Pope Francis, in his excessive humility, degrades the See of St Peter and buys into the original Protestant methodology behind the kind of simplicity he's pushing: by lowering the Catholic Church and stripping her of her grandeur, she becomes just another faceless denomination. Just another four white walls.  

 

That's not right. The Catholic Church is not just another denomination. The  Catholic Church is nothing less than the visible representation of the Kingdom of God on earth. Christ our King, the Pope as His Vicar, and the Cardinals and Bishops as His Princes. The Pope is Father of Kings and Princes, Ruler of the World, whether he likes it or not, and is the representative of Christ on Earth. As a man, Jesus was a simple carpenter's son but in Heaven he is our Eternal King, Lord and Master of the Universe. As the representation of the Kingdom of God, the Church and her princes and so forth deserve all the splendor of the Earth, because anything else is beneath their station. Do we begrudge the President his magnificent mansion, his finely-tailored clothes, his limousines and Air Force One? Of course we don't; because he's the President of the United States, one of the most powerful men on earth, and he shouldn't have to lump it in a Best Western or hitch a ride in a Ford Focus. Humility is important for everyone, because the essence of humility is knowing your place before God. But it is not the be-all-and-end-all of piety, and we need to stop acting like it is; and we especially need to stop acting like our curates and prelates and popes need rags. They need the opposite.

 

I am in half-agreement with you. I believe we need a High-Church culture, a high liturgical culture, because I believe in the power of aesthetics. I am the staunchest defender of the high-aspects of the liturgy, and I hate the Protestantization of the liturgy in some circles. Yet, I assent with Pope Francis in that Cardinals, Bishops and Priests should maintain a private humility. That is, I believe in a public high aesthetic and a private asceticism. 

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Guest Mike Spero

I am unsure if this gif is to agree with me or to make fun XD

Agree cx

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That's not right. The Catholic Church is not just another denomination. The  Catholic Church is nothing less than the visible representation of the Kingdom of God on earth. Christ our King, the Pope as His Vicar, and the Cardinals and Bishops as His Princes. The Pope is Father of Kings and Princes, Ruler of the World, whether he likes it or not, and is the representative of Christ on Earth. As a man, Jesus was a simple carpenter's son but in Heaven he is our Eternal King, Lord and Master of the Universe. As the representation of the Kingdom of God, the Church and her princes and so forth deserve all the splendor of the Earth, because anything else is beneath their station. Do we begrudge the President his magnificent mansion, his finely-tailored clothes, his limousines and Air Force One? Of course we don't; because he's the President of the United States, one of the most powerful men on earth, and he shouldn't have to lump it in a Best Western or hitch a ride in a Ford Focus. Humility is important for everyone, because the essence of humility is knowing your place before God. But it is not the be-all-and-end-all of piety, and we need to stop acting like it is; and we especially need to stop acting like our curates and prelates and popes need rags. They need the opposite.

 

Methinks this sounds an awful lot like idolatry.

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I have taken a step back and returned to this apparently more controversial than originally thought subject.

The clergy should not be held above of... Is it not true that Jesus walked in the same cloaks, the same two sandal everyday and lived only upon what he needed? He gained His nutrition from the generosity of the people around Him. The clergy, when they become such, make a vow of POVERTY. They vow they will only live upon what they need. The Church money he used for his million dollar mansion... Do you know how many POOR that would feed? POOR that would pay for medicals? HELP it would give to those who DON'T EVEN HAVE A HOME? Jesus never wanted to be held above the other man so desperately. I think Pope Francis is RIGHT when he wants the clergy to be HUMBLE and LIVE AS JESUS DID. Hvae we all forgotten the true purpose of being a priest? IT IS TO SERVE GOD! We do not do it for the prestige! Thinking it is okay for them to live in MILLION DOLLAR MANSIONS PAID FOR BY SOMES LAST FEW PENNIES IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. It only leads to WORLDLINESS and GREED.

I encourage you to read the biography of ST. CATHERINE OF SIENA. She assisted the Church when it was heading to schism, but it was divided because of the GREED of the CLERGY. They had DINNER WARE of GOLD while they let the people STARVE. They showed a lack of GENEROSITY to the POOR and were not UNITED. The POPE'S were not BRAVE enough to criticize what THEY WERE BECOMING. She helped the POPE have COURAGE to rebuke these types and rebuild the CHURCH! Saying they should live in mansions degrades her work as a saint. period.

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Methinks this sounds an awful lot like idolatry.

 

To be transparent, I think you are incorrect. BUT I'm interested in trying to show that for both our betterments rather than telling you, so let me ask some questions to see whether I'm right.

 

What is idolatry to you? Are you using the conventional (meaning Merriam-Webster's) definition of the word? And, if so, art thou using the secular definition "extreme adulation" or the religious, "worship of idols"? Or either one? 

Edited by C. Ingram

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