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Lefebvre

No matter what, men are pigs...

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...is what this new study boils down to:

Men who open doors for women are as guilty of sexism as those who are rude to them, according to a new study.

Psychologists found that a friendly or chivalrous attitude can mask chauvinistic and patronising views because the men see females as weak creatures in need of their protection.

They warned that this “benevolent sexism” was harder to spot than the hostile version borne out of an open antipathy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/11461901/Chilvary-could-indicate-hidden-sexism-study-finds.html

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This is the state of feminism in the US. First there was Ban Bossy. And now finding sexism against women (never against men) in the most innocuous, or even nice, things. Opening doors for people, regardless of either person's gender, is nice thing.

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WILL, THIS IS WHAT YOU GET FOR SANDWICH JOKES.

OINK.

..what is this foolishness, I can't even. Suddenly manners are "oppressive" What the duck?

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Oh Mein Gott! What an obscenity! I have not read the actual study, but it appears to be utterly tautological and therefore meaningless. The study appears to merely define chauvinism as chivalry. That is, in their little research paradigm they set chauvinism to chivalry. That is not a sociological study. Chivalry would have to be a different variable from chauvinism in order to say that they proved being chivalrous causes one to be chauvinist. 

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The correct response to accusations of sexism is to smile and say "yup!" and to continue doing what you're doing. Unless what you're doing is holding the door or otherwise being "chivalrous," in which case you should stop, because being chivalrous these days is silly.

Well, while I dislike the term "chivalrous" to describe simply being polite, I'm not sure why being polite is silly.

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I hold doors open for women.

I offer to pay the check for women.

I try to walk on the outside of the street with a woman, so that if somebody gets hit, it is me.

 

And I am further Left than you, so the you all can go to hell. 

Edited by Wesker

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I hold doors open for women.

I offer to pay the check for women.

I try to walk on the outside of the street with a woman, so that if somebody gets hit, it is me.

 

And I am further Left than you, so the you all can go to hell.

I snorted so loud I'm fairly sure I just woke someone up.

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Guest Mike Spero

FaceTable.gif
 
Well, according to that quote I guess I'm a chauvinist. And with that being said, I guess I now also despise myself. So where does that leave us, quote?
 
Oh yeah, you being full of sh.... stuff.
 
It all makes sense now
 
 
 
Of all leaps of logic, this is the most irrational I've heard in a long time. "Manners" are simply a cultural nicety, no one is legitimately holding a door open for a female and thinking "God, this woman is probably too dense and weak to even open this door. I guess I'll have to do it; stupid females". Women tend to enjoy being treated kindly and put first by men given the fact that men are physically stronger and can be a danger; it's a showing of equal worth and consideration if nothing else. This is so full of crock, I can hardly even. It feels like the writer took literally no time to think about what he was about to say before writing it
 
Well... I mean, I know I do that to... But I don't think that universally makes someone an idiot; God, I hope not xp That quote basically said that a cultural showing of kindness towards females and putting their worth above your own is an act of premeditated judgment and superiority.
 
All aboard the stupid train, woot woot

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The bottom line is that it is not my fault that females tend to have passive personalities. The problem is that radical/liberal feminism does violence to the feminine, because it only values the masculine. So much of feminism wants to recreate women in the image of the masculine. So what if women are more submissive/passive than men. Those are not poor qualities to have. In fact, as Cardinal Ratzinger once said, feminine qualities tend to be human qualities. Christianity is a very feminine religion.

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Please everyone don't open a door, give up your seat, or do anything else for someone just because they're a woman.

 

I cringe inside whenever I witness it.

 

It encourages the mentality that women are somehow entitled to free things from men, which isn't the case at all.

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I dont like feminist at all! Especially this. Banning the word bossy? If you cant take criticism,then you where probably not a good leader to begin with. And now this? Whats next? Banning the right for men to breath next to a women because it's "sexist"? Feminist agenda is messed up.

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Guest JAG

The bottom line is that it is not my fault that females tend to have passive personalities. The problem is that radical/liberal feminism does violence to the feminine, because it only values the masculine. So much of feminism wants to recreate women in the image of the masculine. So what if women are more submissive/passive than men. Those are not poor qualities to have. In fact, as Cardinal Ratzinger once said, feminine qualities tend to be human qualities. Christianity is a very feminine religion.

 

We found a topic we can both agree on.  Kudos.

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I just really don't get the point of conforming to old norms if nobody likes them. What do you get out of offering to pay for dinner if doing so just disgusts the girl?

 

From my pov, the only point to courtesy is as a signalling mechanism. You want to signal refinement or affection or provider competence. "Chivalric" behavior no longer signals that effectively, so it's pointless to cling to it.

 

The exception being behavior that's meaningfully helpful, as opposed to symbolically helpful. Like intervening on an ongoing rape. But even die über feminist wouldn't object to that, I'd think.

 

Well, you have to be context-specific. I have had quite liberal female friends tell me that they love it when a man is chivalrous. 

 

Please everyone don't open a door, give up your seat, or do anything else for someone just because they're a woman.

 

I cringe inside whenever I witness it.

 

It encourages the mentality that women are somehow entitled to free things from men, which isn't the case at all.

 

That appears to be a leap in logic, and a saddening one at that. 

 

We found a topic we can both agree on.  Kudos.

 

Psychoanalysis made me more conservative.

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The bottom line is that it is not my fault that females tend to have passive personalities. The problem is that radical/liberal feminism does violence to the feminine, because it only values the masculine. So much of feminism wants to recreate women in the image of the masculine. So what if women are more submissive/passive than men. Those are not poor qualities to have. In fact, as Cardinal Ratzinger once said, feminine qualities tend to be human qualities. Christianity is a very feminine religion.

 

Mhmmm I agree. 

 

It's quite a funny little dichotomy. Now, mind you, I don't mind women being more "masculine" that's their prerogative and I don't believe there's anything wrong with being so but I think we should really strive to honor the feminine and the masculine without having to boil everything own to one ideal PC mix of androgyny.

 

I personally do not mind chivalry. Coming from the south, my experience has not really been that chivalry = misogyny. It used to bother me a bit, actually, when I was younger because I felt there was no way for the female to reciprocate kindness but then I was taught that the reciprocation is in acceptance of the act. I don't generally expect chivarly, especially if it's a guy I know to be more liberal or whatnot but its nice. I guess, like in all things, you just have to take each person as they are. If I know them well, I know the intent and if I don't it's inconsequential anyway. 

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But is a woman unreasonable if she doesn't appreciate chivalric gestures? Is there any point to treating such a woman in a chivalric way in spite of her clearly expressed disdain? I don't think so.

 

Well, let me give you an example. I was on a Philadelphia trip with a girl and she needed to grab a sandwich because she had not eaten all day. At the counter, I offered to pay for it, but when she said "it's okay," I simply desisted. It is quite absurd to force chivalric gestures. I merely offer to be chivalrous.

 

Mhmmm I agree. 

 

It's quite a funny little dichotomy. Now, mind you, I don't mind women being more "masculine" that's their prerogative and I don't believe there's anything wrong with being so but I think we should really strive to honor the feminine and the masculine without having to boil everything own to one ideal PC mix of androgyny.

 

You and I assent quite well on this point. Equality in feminist ideologies is often a coded word for an anti-gendered discourse. It is implicit that androgyny is the only acceptable form of living as a human being. Though, it appears that the ideal of androgyny selectively applies to heterosexuals. Feminists surely have no problem with masculine lesbians. 

Edited by Wesker

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Well being chivalrous should be based on respecting the woman that you are with. If she enjoys being treated in the old fashioned way that normally comes to mind when you hear the word "chivalry" that's how she should be treated. If she dislikes being treated that way, the chivalrous thing to do, is to refrain. It's all about loyalty, honor, and respect.

I recently had an eye opening experience with this. I'm a social worker, I'm all about social justice, equality, and defending the oppressed. I tend to date men with similar values, yet it never works out. I recently realized that i just want to be treated like a lady. Somehow, men who value an equal relationship seem to think that this means forcing me into a more masculine role. Which is rather sexist in itself. I've seriously been asked to stop wearing makeup and wearing heels, as I'm forcing myself to live up to sexist ideals. It's a little scary looking at the path our society is headed in.

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Please everyone don't open a door, give up your seat, or do anything else for someone just because they're a woman.

 

I cringe inside whenever I witness it.

 

It encourages the mentality that women are somehow entitled to free things from men, which isn't the case at all.

 

QFT! I'm all about nice gestures like holding doors, but not because of gender. 

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"If you are wrong to do it, avoid the action itself. If you are right to do it, why do you fear those who will be wrong to blame you?"

Basically, I don't care. I will continue to behave according to what I think is right; if acting "chivalrously" towards women can be construed as offensive by someone, that's their choice.

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Everyone, there is no link or resource to the actual research done itself. We really have no way of knowing what the "scientific" findings were. Further, this was a study conducted with 27 pairs of people who are undergraduate students. That is not by any means a good random sample. That is in fact an awful idea.0

 

This is not science, this is not research, this is nothing. Do not let your underwear become knotted over absolute nothingness, please.

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If I get to the door first then I will hold it open for you.

If you get to the door first it would be very nice of you to hold it open for me.

 

Manners and common courtesy are not related to gender.

That is all.

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Manners and common courtesy are not related to gender.

That is all.

 

Manners and courtesy are not gender specific, but because I am a heterosexual male, I naturally have tender emotions towards females that I simply do not have towards males. So, for example, I am quite protective of my female friends, whereas the same is not true of my male friends. I probably will not offer my jacket to another male, but I will give my jacket to a cold female. 

 

I do not know why people feel the need to collapse all of humanity into an absolute identity. Is it wrong that I act differently towards females than I do males, because of the reality of sexuality? I tend to believe that gendered conceptions color our lives and make humanity beautiful. I say this, because I used to be the opposite. For a short time, I bought into the Butlerian, postmodern feminism that seeks to collapse humanity into a homogenous gray.

Edited by Wesker

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If I get to the door first then I will hold it open for you.

If you get to the door first it would be very nice of you to hold it open for me.

 

Manners and common courtesy are not related to gender.

That is all.

 

This.

 

If you only do certain things for a certain gender, that does not tell me you're well-mannered. It tells me you've got something to prove. 

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Guest JAG
but then I was taught that the reciprocation is in acceptance of the act.

 

 

That's probably because your mother raised you well.  People who are prideful or were raise believing stuff like this: 'If you only do certain things for a certain gender, that does not tell me you're well-mannered. It tells me you've got something to prove' are killing beautiful culture.

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