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Flag Desecration

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I am about to get into a debate on Facebook about this, and before that happens, I thought I'd swing by here..

For US citizens: Do you think desecrating the American flag should be illegal?

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No, in a way I think of it like a freedom or speech thing. Johnny cash once said "I appreciate your right to burn your flag, but I also appreciate my right to shoot you if you try to burn mine."

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No, but I gotta admit it gets under my skin a little. Depending on the reasons at least. 

 

Edit: I should clarify what I mean here. I've actually attended a flag burning before. My grandfather had found one that had been damaged after a hurricane. He insisted we burn it so that it had a dignified end. I *think* this is the proper way to dispose of a damaged one. Was a very respectful affair, WWII vet that he was. 

Edited by Marley

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Yes. It is VERY disrespectful to do it cause its basically saying you dont care about america or the soldiers that layed their life down to protect the country. It is sick and twisted and those that do it should be jailed

now lets burn this flag

Edited by Bryce B.

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I'm Australian, and I think burning the Australian flag should be illegal and subject to jail time.

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I'm Australian, and I think burning the Australian flag should be illegal and subject to jail time.

*gives million likes*

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Yes. It is VERY disrespectful to do it cause its basically saying you dont care about america or the soldiers that layed their life down to protect the country. It is sick and twisted and those that do it should be jailed

 

But why does that mean it should be illegal?

 

Anyway, I wouldn't be too upset if it were a slap-on-the-wrist misdemeanor, but that's the most I'd be willing to permit the government to say about it.

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But why does that mean it should be illegal?

 

Anyway, I wouldn't be too upset if it were a slap-on-the-wrist misdemeanor, but that's the most I'd be willing to permit the government to say about it.

You know how disrespectful it is when a soldier sees someone burning a flag?? They get very hurt and upset. If I were a soldier and my commrads or anyone else died in the military. Which happens every day. I would be very p'd off at a ding dong burning the very symbol of americas freedom

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I'd be comfortable with flag desecration as a misdemeanor. It's childish and disrespectful no matter what flag it is; and while I don't give two whoops in Hell for Old Glory itself -- the sole exception being when I listen to Johnny Cash do Ragged Old Flag -- the idea is unappealing enough that I think misdemeanor status is fine.

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You know how disrespectful it is when a soldier sees someone burning a flag?? They get very hurt and upset. If I were a soldier and my commrads or anyone else died in the military. Which happens every day. I would be very p'd off at a ding dong burning the very symbol of americas freedom

So why does that mean it should be illegal? Are you going to say that every offensive and disrespectful act should be illegal, or is there a difference?

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It's not my flag, but I can understand people having strong feelings on the matter and taking personal affront at desecration of the flag. I remember on Remembrance Day a few years back (I'm pretty certain it was 2010), a group of extremist Muslims burnt a poppy and disrupted the silence, and I found that very difficult to deal with. That wasn't even our flag, but the disrespect to what it represented was what I found so distasteful. 

 

Whether it should be illegal or not, I don't know. 

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Guest JAG

No, it should not be illegal in America.  It should be protected under freedom of speech.

 

The people who do it are idiots though - biting the hand that feeds them like an untrained labridoodle.

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You know how disrespectful it is when a soldier sees someone burning a flag?? They get very hurt and upset. If I were a soldier and my commrads or anyone else died in the military. Which happens every day. I would be very p'd off at a ding dong burning the very symbol of americas freedom

You'd be p'd off?

So your feelings are more important than the actual principles of liberty?

Remember, we have to assume that there are no other crimes being committed here. Thus, it only makes sense that the flag I am hypothetically desecrating (which I would never do) is my property.

So, I am the rightful owner of this flag, this object. How is a law against desecrating it not in violation of my property rights?

Edited by Cato

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You'd be p'd off?

So your feelings are more important than the actual principles of liberty?

 

Bryce's reasons for not burning the flag are quite childish, and based on a silly emotional response. However, there might be a more logical justification to ban flag burning within an American context. If one looks to the flag as the symbolic representation of the nation as a whole, as the very expression of freedom itself guaranteed in our symbolic economy, then it is plausible that it represents the limits of free speech. Or perhaps there is another way to put it: I am not convinced that free speech has to permit the freedom of the antithesis of free speech in order to be considered free. So, for example, one could argue that the confederate flag represents the antithesis of freedom and for that reason, in the interests of maintaining free speech, the particular must be violated in order to maintain freedom as the universal. It is a somewhat Rawlsian argument. That is, once you burn the symbolic embodiment of freedom, you step outside the symbolic order of freedom and are no longer under its protective umbrella. That is, perhaps a speech that is rooted in a tyranny which seeks to upend freedom itself should not be considered protected speech.

 

My understanding of free speech is more akin to the European idea. I am not convinced that free speech should be as abstractly absolute as it is in the United States. That being said, I am not supportive of the manner in which European countries censor free speech. However, I do not believe in this illusory neutral liberal state. I believe that a socio-political order must have values. 

 

Note: The above is not much a well thought out, reasoned argument. It is merely my disconnected rambling while I am practicing my Mandarian Vocabulary. 超酷,好!

Edited by Wesker

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So why does that mean it should be illegal? Are you going to say that every offensive and disrespectful act should be illegal, or is there a difference?

Its sick and twisted. Its basically saying you hate the country. And personally. It hurts my entire family cause I had multiple family members die overseas in WW2 and other wars

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Bryce's reasons for not burning the flag are quite childish, and based on a silly emotional response. However, there might be a more logical justification to ban flag burning within an American context. If one looks to the flag as the symbolic representation of the nation as a whole, as the very expression of freedom itself guaranteed in our symbolic economy, then it is plausible that it represents the limits of free speech. Or perhaps there is another way to put it: I am not convinced that free speech has to permit the freedom of the antithesis of free speech in order to be considered free. So, for example, one could argue that the confederate flag represents the antithesis of freedom and for that reason, in the interests of maintaining free speech, the particular must be violated in order to maintain freedom as the universal. It is a somewhat Rawlsian argument. That is, once you burn the symbolic embodiment of freedom, you step outside the symbolic order of freedom and are no longer under its protective umbrella. That is, perhaps a speech that is rooted in a tyranny which seeks to upend freedom itself should not be considered protected speech.

 

My understanding of free speech is more akin to the European idea. I am not convinced that free speech should be as abstractly absolute as it is in the United States. That being said, I am not supportive of the manner in which European countries censor free speech. However, I do not believe in this illusory neutral liberal state. I believe that a socio-political order must have values.

You apparently don't care that SOLDIERS DIED FOR YOU SO YOU HAVE FREAKING FREEDOM! That is just sick.

On a side note, im sure multiple marines and others would love to beat up those that burn or mess up a perfectly fine flag. Now if the flag is ripped and that, bring it to the National Guard or something.

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It's not my flag, but I think it's the same for all countries.

I totally understand people's feelings towards flag desecration. It shows disrespect to the country. I'm not entirely sure if that alone qualifies for imprisonment unless it's an act of intimidation, like if terrorists burned a flag as a show of force.

(P.S. never say the word 'flag' to an Irishman. They don't seem to take it too well XD)

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Its sick and twisted. Its basically saying you hate the country. And personally. It hurts my entire family cause I had multiple family members die overseas in WW2 and other wars

 

But why does that mean it should be illegal?

 

You apparently don't care that SOLDIERS DIED FOR YOU SO YOU HAVE FREAKING FREEDOM! That is just sick.

On a side note, im sure multiple marines and others would love to beat up those that burn or mess up a perfectly fine flag. Now if the flag is ripped and that, bring it to the National Guard or something.

 

Um, Bryce, John is arguing that it could be okay to ban flag burning.

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It is disrespectful to those who died fightinng for our freedom. If you think it is ok to desecrate the flag. You arent a real US citizen

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Its sick and twisted. Its basically saying you hate the country. And personally. It hurts my entire family cause I had multiple family members die overseas in WW2 and other wars

You aren't addressing anything anyone is saying.

On a side note, im sure multiple marines and others would love to beat up those that burn or mess up a perfectly fine flag. Now if the flag is ripped and that, bring it to the National Guard or something.

1.) You didn't read his post.

2.) Then those marines have aggressed against another person and should be thrown in jail where they belong.

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It is disrespectful to those who died fightinng for our freedom. If you think it is ok to desecrate the flag. You arent a real US citizen

 

It's not okay to desecrate the flag. But what does that have to do with legality?

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It's not okay to desecrate the flag. But what does that have to do with legality?

Let me talk to a friend at served in the military. Ill gather information and post later

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