Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Cato

Is the rebel flag racist?

Is the rebel flag racist?  

20 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the rebel flag racist?

    • Yes, it is racist, and should be banned.
      2
    • The flag is not racist, and flag should not be banned, but should be removed from all official government buildings.
      3
    • The flag is racist, and should be removed from official government buildings, but should not be banned
      8
    • The flag is not racist, should not be banned, and should not be removed from government buildings.
      7


Recommended Posts

Is the rebel flag racist?

Since the last thread was unjustly requested for deletion, I have reopened the discussion.

Unfortunately, those of you who contributed to the last thread have been robbed of all of the time and energy you put into your posts.

Now that this thread has been restarted by me, I personally assure you that your posts will not be defaced by my request.

Therefore, if it pleases you, I invite you all to resubmit your thoughts to the discussion.

Edited by Cato

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't realize a whole thread could be deleted on request of the thread author. Why not just split it off and make someone else the author and remove the original author as the originator? #sigh

 

The flag isn't racist. It's a flag, it doesn't have emotions or feelings or anything of the sort. And, it does have a history of being associated with "neutral", old-fashioned times. 

 

What I mean by that is, if you think of the idea of the "old south", sweet tea, georgia peaches, fun loving square dances, etc.. there is an imagery and a story line associated with the flag.  But, it is not exclusively those harmless images. There's a deeply cut wound in american history related to the civil war, and the turmoil our nation went through regarding slavery. And the flag is just as tightly coupled to that very negative image, as much as it is tied to the harmless ones.

 

I would say yes, the flag equally represents racism to those who associate it with that, as well as some other ideas that aren't offensive. 

 

I don't think the flag should be "banned". I don't think really anything that doesn't infringe on other people should be banned. Countries have banned bibles, explicit books and political materials, and many many other things. None of it should be "banned", especially in a nation which was founded on the idea of escaping from tyranny and oppression. But, should the flag be used in states and government? Probably not. It doesn't have any meaning in the realm of our government. It doesn't represent a state, or a country or anything related to how American government should operate.

 

Banning it would be bad, because while I don't know if you can call it an infringement on free speech, People have fought, and earned, the right to attend the funerals of dead people and hold up signs of hatred, and Flag Burning is an protected free-speech right.

 

I think banning the rebel flag, knowing that we've had court cases about free speech with majorly offensively things being "protected", would be a major hypocritical and inconsistent stance for our government. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The flag is symbolizes a racism issue because, regardless of the ideals of southerners, the flag represents the Confederacy.

It does not just symbolize racism, but a horrendous bloody war that should not be honored. It was a war where brother and brother ended up killing each other. What beauty is there in that?

All over the idea that a black person is not equal to a white man, a problem that sadly still exists today.

It symbolizes slavery, something people used to believe was okay but came to realize no person should be treated less than human. But sadly not everyone came around to this.

It symbolizes bloodshed, loss...I would not consider the confederacy something to remember, even to honor...

General Lee himself, would have no so much joined the war if the South was not his homeland, but Lee was a Southerner and defended his land. But this sadly was not the gist of the war, the war was a bloody war over deciding whether a Black man was the same as you and me, and as far as I am concerned waving that flag tells me you don't think well of blacks, minorities in general, and you are obviously a real jerk because it spits on the graves of those who suffered and died.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't realize a whole thread could be deleted on request of the thread author. Why not just split it off and make someone else the author and remove the original author as the originator? #sigh

The flag isn't racist. It's a flag, it doesn't have emotions or feelings or anything of the sort. And, it does have a history of being associated with "neutral", old-fashioned times.

What I mean by that is, if you think of the idea of the "old south", sweet tea, georgia peaches, fun loving square dances, etc.. there is an imagery and a story line associated with the flag. But, it is not exclusively those harmless images. There's a deeply cut wound in american history related to the civil war, and the turmoil our nation went through regarding slavery. And the flag is just as tightly coupled to that very negative image, as much as it is tied to the harmless ones.

I would say yes, the flag equally represents racism to those who associate it with that, as well as some other ideas that aren't offensive.

I don't think the flag should be "banned". I don't think really anything that doesn't infringe on other people should be banned. Countries have banned bibles, explicit books and political materials, and many many other things. None of it should be "banned", especially in a nation which was founded on the idea of escaping from tyranny and oppression. But, should the flag be used in states and government? Probably not. It doesn't have any meaning in the realm of our government. It doesn't represent a state, or a country or anything related to how American government should operate.

Banning it would be bad, because while I don't know if you can call it an infringement on free speech, People have fought, and earned, the right to attend the funerals of dead people and hold up signs of hatred, and Flag Burning is an protected free-speech right.

I think banning the rebel flag, knowing that we've had court cases about free speech with majorly offensively things being "protected", would be a major hypocritical and inconsistent stance for our government.

This. Pointer has made the best point in this thread. And Jazzy, you cannot speak for my relatives decision to lead the Confederacy. What you dont know probably. Is that my relative, General Lee, was a christian and a great man after the war. Amd might I remind you that slavery still exosts on other countries. So what I dont get is why you and many others are making a big fusss over . flag instead of doing something to stop slavery in other places

Now that! Is disgraceful. I agree with Pointer. Dont fly the flag on a government building. But allow law abiding citizens to fly it as they wish. The rebel flag was used for the wrong side sure. But you have to understand things have changed. For example. People adopt new things just like we did back during the triangls trade. The girl I hold dear to me is half hispanic, do you really think im racist. If I was, my momma wouldve hurt me dead and I wouldnt be here. You need to see things in a new way and adopt new things

Edited by Bryce B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This. Pointer has made the best point in this thread. And Jazzy, you cannot speak for my relatives decision to lead the Confederacy. What you dont know probably. Is that my relative, General Lee, was a christian and a great man after the war. Amd might I remind you that slavery still exosts on other countries. So what I dont get is why you and many others are making a big fusss over . flag instead of doing something to stop slavery in other places

Now that! Is disgraceful. I agree with Pointer. Dont fly the flag on a government building. But allow law abiding citizens to fly it as they wish. The rebel flag was used for the wrong side sure. But you have to understand things have changed. For example. People adopt new things just like we did back during the triangls trade. The girl I hold dear to me is half hispanic, do you really think im racist. If I was, my momma wouldve hurt me dead and I wouldnt be here. You need to see things in a new way and adopt new things

It may be just a flag, but that doesn't change the heart and soul of those that wish to fly it. That flag will forever be synonymous with racial oppression and hatred, and no matter how many times you say it's not; it does not negate it. 

 

and for the love of all that is good, would someone pleeeeeeeeeeease make a Debate 101 thread so that thread derailment doesn't happen....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may be just a flag, but that doesn't change the heart and soul of those that wish to fly it. That flag will forever be synonymous with racial oppression and hatred, and no matter how many times you say it's not; it does not negate it.

and for the love of all that is good, would someone pleeeeeeeeeeease make a Debate 101 thread so that thread derailment doesn't happen....

Theres people that agree with me and are way smarter than myself

I deleted the old thread for a reason. To keep people from callin eachother racist.

I didnt understand the other side until delores helped me out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Theres people that agree with me and are way smarter than myself

I deleted the old thread for a reason. To keep people from callin eachother racist.

I didnt understand the other side until delores helped me out.

Most people here have enough self-control to not call each other racist...besides, a charge like that has weight. It's a serious accusation. You don't just throw it around.

So, you knowingly created a debate thread on a topic that you admittedly didn't have adequate knowledge on? Then how can you debate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Theres people that agree with me and are way smarter than myself

I deleted the old thread for a reason. To keep people from callin eachother racist.

I didnt understand the other side until delores helped me out.

But Bryce to be frank...

You need to open your mind up to people BESIDES Delores. Some people are very peaceful with you and you refuse to even agree to disagree with the other end. Sometimes there is an acceptance required.

I will never find the rebel flag okay. You will never find it wrong. But we can learn from each other, the two sides of the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most people here have enough self-control to not call each other racist...besides, a charge like that has weight. It's a serious accusation. You don't just throw it around.

So, you knowingly created a debate thread on a topic that you admittedly didn't have adequate knowledge on? Then how can you debate?

Im done here. Have fun with this debate. And thanks alot cato for bringing the bloody thread back -.-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The flag is just an empty sign and what it signifies is culturally determined.

 

That said, the flag signifies racism to many people in our society, including people who suffer the effects of serious current and historic oppression. Virtually everyone knows this.

 

Because of that common knowledge, if Sam flies the Confederate flag, then I also know that there is a very high chance that Sam does not care as much as he ought to about the problems of American racism or the feelings of people who suffer from it. He is at best extremely disrespectful and at worst an unapologetic bigot. (Of course there's also the chance of extreme ignorance, but in most cases this can be discounted)

 

The Confederate flag should of course not by flown by government buildings. Even if it weren't racist, it's still a symbol of rebellion against the federal government and...why does anyone think this is OK for a state government? That said, no, private citizens shouldn't be banned from flying the flag because freedom of speech. If they lose a few friends or jobs in the process, though, that's on their own heads.

 

Also, for what it's worth, I am quite confident that the South Carolina Confederate flag was put up in 1961 to protest the civil rights movement. While they claim that it was to celebrate the centennial of the Civil War, that date happened to coincidentally align with the expansion of the federal government into regulating discrimination. And they never took it down.

Edited by Chris-M

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Jazzy, you cannot speak for my relatives decision to lead the Confederacy. What you dont know probably. Is that my relative, General Lee, was a christian and a great man after the war. Amd might I remind you that slavery still exosts on other countries. So what I dont get is why you and many others are making a big fusss over . flag instead of doing something to stop slavery in other places - this was directed to me so I will respond.

 

I actually gave credit to General Lee. I didn't say he was a bad person. He was a good man. Lincoln understood why Lee refused to join the Yankee's side of the war. The South was his home, and he wanted to protect what his home thought was right.

He was a wonderful man before, during, AND after the war. I never said he was an awful person. Historically he had a very great mind as well.

Slavery sadly does still exist, and not just to the blacks. Child labor still exists in areas as well. But this has nothing to do with our feelings toward the flag.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Bryce to be frank...

You need to open your mind up to people BESIDES Delores. Some people are very peaceful with you and you refuse to even agree to disagree with the other end. Sometimes there is an acceptance required.

I will never find the rebel flag okay. You will never find it wrong. But we can learn from each other, the two sides of the story.

I have trouble listenin too...certain people. But your right. I have been arrogant and dumb. Just like the screw up I am. Meh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Jazzy, you cannot speak for my relatives decision to lead the Confederacy. What you dont know probably. Is that my relative, General Lee, was a christian and a great man after the war. Amd might I remind you that slavery still exosts on other countries. So what I dont get is why you and many others are making a big fusss over . flag instead of doing something to stop slavery in other places - this was directed to me so I will respond.

I actually gave credit to General Lee. I didn't say he was a bad person. He was a good man. Lincoln understood why Lee refused to join the Yankee's side of the war. The South was his home, and he wanted to protect what his home thought was right.

He was a wonderful man before, during, AND after the war. I never said he was an awful person. Historically he had a very great mind as well.

Slavery sadly does still exist, and not just to the blacks. Child labor still exists in areas as well. But this has nothing to do with our feelings toward the flag.

Correction it was the Union that he refused to join. And alrightm I guess I read what you said wrong :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it is.

 

Because what does it symbolize? Nothing good. Nothing pure. It represents one of, if not the, greatest example of self-inflicted injury in American history, and why was it done? The right to own people. To dehumanize and enslave them.

 

Is the north that much better? No. Lincoln wasn't some progressive delight; he was just as racist as the rest of them. But flying the flag doesn't celebrate anything other than the fight for the right to own human beings. 

 

Now, should the individual be deprived of the right to showcase their unpleasantness to the world and fly a flag the represents a rebellion based on the right to own black people? No. But the confederate flag flies on Southern government buildings as a result of their protesting the Civil Rights movement. It represents nothing but pain, and thus should not be flown with any other flag, state or national, on government property.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amd might I remind you that slavery still exosts on other countries. So what I dont get is why you and many others are making a big fusss over . flag instead of doing something to stop slavery in other places

Now that! Is disgraceful. 

 

Yeah, it's disgraceful. And that's why there are multiple people on this forum, including myself, who do work towards ending slavery across the globe. This kind of thing is not cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it is.

 

Because what does it symbolize? Nothing good. Nothing pure. It represents one of, if not the, greatest example of self-inflicted injury in American history, and why was it done? The right to own people. To dehumanize and enslave them.

 

Is the north that much better? No. Lincoln wasn't some progressive delight; he was just as racist as the rest of them. But flying the flag doesn't celebrate anything other than the fight for the right to own human beings. 

 

Now, should the individual be deprived of the right to showcase their unpleasantness to the world and fly a flag the represents a rebellion based on the right to own black people? No. But the confederate flag flies on Southern government buildings as a result of their protesting the Civil Rights movement. It represents nothing but pain, and thus should not be flown with any other flag, state or national, on government property.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I don't see any purpose in flying the Confederate flag, it's a symbol of rebellion against the Government because of slavery. What good does flying said flag do? I don't believe we should ban the flag, I understand that there is freedom of speech, but it has no place in Government buildings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m a bit bored with the inactivity of the forum right now, so I am going to add my two cents to this argument. This is a bit personal to me and it is something I want people to be adequately acknowledged about

 

As many might know, I am rather knowledgeable in my American History. And I have special interests in the Antebellum/Civil War period. Most don’t know though that my ancestors fought for the South. My 3rd Great-Grandpa was a lieutenant in the North Carolina CSA milita. He was a relatively average southern person, owned a small farm on some land still belonging to my family. It was unlikely he had any slaves, yet he enlisted and fought for three years in that long and bloody war.

 

One of the greatest myths in American History is the idea that the Civil War was about slavery, and that is simply not true. It was about state rights, and the right to self-rule. Before you go all “racist, close minded, insensitive person” on me, let me explain.

Most of the early conflicts about slave states/free states were not about the morality of slavery but the distribution of power. Southern states had similar interests and did not want the North to become more powerful. Likewise, the North wanted to limit the power of the South, with acts like the 3/5ths Compromise. These strained relationships and acts like the Tariff of 1828, which had the Southern States losing economic power to the more industrial North. South Carolina’s nullification crisis and numerous North supported Slave uprisings didn’t help. After the election of 1860, with a very pro-North Lincoln winning, South Carolina and 6 other states secede and takes Fort Sumter. If you still think that slavery is the sole cause, think of this. Numerous southern states like North Carolina (go NC!!!!) were reluctant to secede. But once they saw that the Federal government denied the other states the right to succession, and has actually fired upon Southern forces, they knew that the Federal Government was taking away the right to self-rule and decided to join the Confederacy. Thus the Flag doesn’t stand for slavery.    

   

Very few people would say that the South supported racism when they realized the stances of the people behind it. Abraham Lincoln believed Blacks were below whites and should be deported. General Grant was an active slave owner throughout the war, and even said that he would offer his sword to the Confederacy if the war was about slavery. However, General Lee released all his inherited slaves prior to the Civil War, calling it an awful practice. Stonewall Jackson taught illegal Sunday school classes to black kids. That’s something you don’t see in very many history books, now do you? Thus the flag doesn’t stand for racism, in fact, the US flag has more racism behind it.

 

One could argue that the states had the right to secede. After all, the original colonies joined the Union by choice, so they should be able the leave likewise. Also, a few of the original states had stipulations in their state constitutions that allowed them to leave the Union if wished. And a section of the US Constitution states that all states have equal power, so shouldn’t all states then have the power to secede? Thus the flag doesn’t represent the South trying to rebel against the Union, but instead the Union trying the subjugate the South.

 

Slavery could have been easily stopped in the North really wanted it to. If the Fugitive Slave Act wasn’t enforced, so many slaves would be able to escape that slavery would become economically nonviable to handle and would have been abandoned. A similar thing happened in Brazil, slavery was ended because part of the country allowed fleeing slaves to stay free.

 

So no, the flag does not stand for slavery, racism, whatever else you want to spit at it for. All those lies are just from the government trying to make black people feel better about themselves. The flag stands for those who dare to stand up and fight for the right of independence. It stand for those who stood up to an oppressive government when all the odds were against them. It stands for the pride and uniqueness of the South, a culture of its own within these USA.

 

Anyone please, be free to debate my opinions and historical merits, I will be glad to defend them.    

Edited by PlasmaHam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To counter some other arguments listed in the thread:

 

1. The South has a lot of pride in its culture. I do not see South Carolina's decision to raise the Confederate Flag in 1961 as racist. If it was about civil rights protesters, I don't why they didn't do it years beforehand. Also, a common myth is the South being the pinnacle of racism in America. Prior to the Civil War, the South was actually more open and lenient towards free blacks than the North. Only after the unfair Reconstruction laws did people in the South actually start to feel anger towards the blacks, for just reasons.

 

2. Another name for the Civil War was The War of Southern Independence, and it fits. The Southern colonies were more or less in the same position as the America colonists in the Revolutionary War. They were fighting due to belief that the government was being unfair to them and were threatening their rights to self-rule. Is there anything better than a war for liberty, freedom, and independence?  I don't see how the Confederate Flag doesn't represent these things. Meanwhile the Americans were restricting freedom, independence, and liberty.

 

3. No one alive today has faced the life of American slavery. In fact, it is doubtful anyone alive today had ever known an American Slave. Yet for some reason we think the black folks are being burdened by this. You guys just need to let it go, what happened happened, and all your protests are just making things worse. And racism throughout American history is not nearly as bad as people want you to believe. Groups like the KKK were uncommon, and were rarely supported by the populace.

 

4. People get offended by nearly everything nowadays, and I have a right to free speech. I will fly that flag, because to me and because of historical fact, the flag does not represent racism, it represents freedom. if you feel offended by that, I'm a sorry you are so indwelled in politically correct teachings. But I am not putting down a flag because you are offended by it, deal with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another name for the Civil War was The War of Southern Independence, and it fits. The Southern colonies were more or less in the same position as the America colonists in the Revolutionary War. They were fighting due to belief that the government was being unfair to them and were threatening their rights to self-rule.

Please, it's all about the money. The states' rights thing, while an entirely legitimate concern, was in no way the real motivation.

 

Is there anything better than a war for liberty, freedom, and independence?

Yes. A war for no other purpose than defense.

 

No one alive today has faced the life of American slavery. In fact, it is doubtful anyone alive today had ever known an American Slave. Yet for some reason we think the black folks are being burdened by this. You guys just need to let it go, what happened happened, and all your protests are just making things worse.

The effects of slavery continue. Higher poverty and crime rates in black communities are not coincidences or caused by black people being inferior: a great deal of it can be traced to problems which developed during and after the institution of American slavery.

 

People get offended by nearly everything nowadays, and I have a right to free speech. I will fly that flag, because to me and because of historical fact, the flag does not represent racism, it represents freedom. if you feel offended by that, I'm a sorry you are so indwelled in politically correct teachings. But I am not putting down a flag because you are offended by it, deal with it.

I'm going to challenge that on theological grounds. What right do you have to cause such deep and painful offense for so many people over anything less than the Gospel? As Christians we are called to peace, to a good standing before men, and to unity within the Church. Flying the Confederate Flag, whether it should or not, creates problems in each of these areas. It divides black and white in the Church, and creates a barrier between white Christians and black unbelievers who we ought to be evangelizing. We know what Paul would have said, "If flying the Confederate Flag hurts a brother, I will never again fly the flag!" It's one thing to offend people over the truth and the word of God, but let us not alienate others over less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I argue simply the fact you say the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery.

 

The Civil War would not have happened if the President had not abolished slavery. The Civil War was ENTIRELY about the right to have slaves. The South made tons of moneys off cotton and other plants that they did nothing for, and paid little to slaves except maltreatment. The farmers lived in luxury off the money while slaves were treated as subhumans. How is that even worth defending? Caleb is correct in this stance, it is ALL about the green stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Civil War would not have happened if the President had not abolished slavery.

Well, this part is not correct at all. Lincoln had no plans to abolish slavery until during the war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They were fighting due to belief that the government was being unfair to them and were threatening their rights to self-rule

 

Prior to the election of 1860, the literature, the journalism, and a huge swathe of the major political debates of the day revolved around slavery.  The Civil War itself was precipitated by the election of 1860, a contest in which every major candidate for the North and the South ran primarily on the slavery question. Lincoln, the free soil candidate, won and the South seceded because they thought slavery was under threat. That's not conjecture--that's what southerners themselves were saying. 

 

Yeah, the Civil War was about states' rights--states' rights to practice slavery. 

 

Prior to the Civil War, the South was actually more open and lenient towards free blacks than the North.

 

 

Following Nat Turner's Rebellion in 1831, 29 years before the Civil War, it became illegal in most of the South to teach blacks how to read or write. It became illegal for blacks to hold religious meetings without the presence of a white minister. As slavery became a more and more central issue, regional inequalities of this type only became more pronounced and violence against free blacks in the south only became more common. Meanwhile, educational and professional opportunities were broadly available to free blacks in places like Boston and New York. By and large, free blacks tended to migrate north and not the other way around.

 

So no, I don't buy for a minute that the South was "more lenient" towards free blacks. If you want to change my mind, you'll need to provide some actual evidence.

 

 

 

Only after the unfair Reconstruction laws did people in the South actually start to feel anger towards the blacks, for just reasons.

 

 

My knowledge centers on North Carolina. Here, federal troops occupied the state until we repudiated secession, ratified the 14th and 15th amendments, and passed a new state constitution. In response to this, southerners engaged in violent voter suppression, in acts of terrorism against blacks and "scallawag" white voters, and tried in numerous ways to dodge actually changing the status of blacks. I go into greater detail on this topic below.

 

This is not a just response. This is the response of a racist society trying to preserve racist institutions by any means necessary in the face of a hostile occupation. 

 

 And racism throughout American history is not nearly as bad as people want you to believe. Groups like the KKK were uncommon, and were rarely supported by the populace.

 

You need to provide evidence for this kind of claim. The fact is that by virtually any dimension--political power, educational access, wealth--blacks in the South were systematically disadvantaged, and it's usually not hard to find white institutions that created or exacerbated the problem.

 

Whenever anyone has tried to change this, there has been a systematic and conscious response. In North Carolina after the Civil War, Republican legislators were booted out of office largely because of voter intimidation tactics carried out by the KKK. Governor Holden tried to pursue and prosecute these vigilantes, and in response the Conservative Congress impeached him virtually without cause. 

 

True, the KKK disappeared for the most part after this, but that's because they had already reinstalled white supremacy as the law of the land. As soon as that status quo was threatened, guess what happened? They came back! In the 1890s, for example, Republican and Progressive politicians came into power under a Fusionist ticket that relied heavily on the black vote. In response, Redshirt terrorists once again set about intimidating Fusionist voters. North Carolina finally dealt with the 'problem' altogether with bogus literacy tests that didn't apply to white voters (see grandfather amendments).

 

True, many poor white folks did not support Democratic attempts to lock down political power in this way, but it doesn't matter in particular because those poor white people lost. Claiming that the South was not a racist society because a lot of poor white people didn't support its racist institutions is like claiming that Afghanistan was not a radical Islamic society because most people didn't support the Taliban.

Edited by Chris-M

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×