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Nicene Nerd

For the First Time in Forever, Here's a Rapture Debate

Rapture Poll  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. What view of the Rapture do you hold?

    • Pre-tribulation
    • Mid-tribulation/pre-wrath
      0
    • Post-tribulation
    • No Rapture at all
    • Other
    • Aliens


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Rapture was an idea thought of by man and made different in Hollywood. I get this from a elderly man in a prayet group im in at my church

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Side note: When I first saw the thread title, I thought of Frozen and threw up a little bit.

I had to pick aliens.  XD

Anyway, I was a pre-tribber for years ,can't tell you why, if it's because I gobbled up the LEFT BEHIND: Tribulation Force novels or because my mom believed it so I adopted it, I dunno. I don't have any real verses to back me up of disprove my thoughts (please please educate me!)

My studies on what stress can do to the body makes me disinclined to believe in post-trib. With stress disorders and other things on the rise, could people actually mentally and emotionally handle all that without going bananas or killing themselves?  Would the earth just become one murderous mass of PSTD?

I do believe in a rapture, I'm just not sure about the when, considering I've heard some arguments that we're currently in the Tribulation years.. .and seeing as to how I'm still here, and you're still here and she's still here...

I'll gladly watch and learn this debate.

-watches from spaceship-



 

Edited by Boogles

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Rapture was an idea thought of by man and made different in Hollywood. I get this from a elderly man in a prayet group im in at my church

To hold a position such as this is to be ignorant of Scripture. I'm sorry, but it is. Did you even bother to read my post on the word rapture itself? It is in the Bible. 

Edited by Diakonos

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To hold a position such as this is to be ignorant of Scripture.

I don't know about that. While I wouldn't put it exactly like Bryce has, I think he's awfully close to correct.

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Anywho: III. Doctrine of Imminence

 

I'm assuming you know what this is, and if not: It's the position that we should expect the return of Jesus at any moment, that is to say that there are no events needed to occur for the Rapture to happen.

 

Mid-trib and post-trib state that this isn't Biblical. I want to know why, and if so, reason from Scripture. I understand that we are to occupy ourselves until His return, but that could just be a warning to not stop spreading the Gospel because His return is near. 

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I don't know about that. While I wouldn't put it exactly like Bryce has, I think he's awfully close to correct.

In the sense that it's been saturated by Hollywood, I agree. I wouldn't say necessarily that it's an idea completely thought up by man, as to say it's a scheme or something. 

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Anywho: III. Doctrine of Imminence

 

I'm assuming you know what this is, and if not: It's the position that we should expect the return of Jesus at any moment, that is to say that there are no events needed to occur for the Rapture to happen.

 

Mid-trib and post-trib state that this isn't Biblical. I want to know why, and if so, reason from Scripture. I understand that we are to occupy ourselves until His return, but that could just be a warning to not stop spreading the Gospel because His return is near.

I'm not exactly opposed to a doctrine of imminence. Unlike most mid- and post-tribulationists, I don't think Revelation requires us to see the Tribulation as spanning a literal 7 years immediately preceding Jesus' return. The only thing that seems to be necessary before the end is the fall of "Babylon," which contextually is almost certainly Rome. That already happened, so I don't think it's impossible that Jesus could return at any time.

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I have never ever been able to make my mind up about this matter. Like Becky, I'll enjoy reading this thread.

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There is evidence for all arguments, what I always find myself wondering is -- why? Why bother wondering how or when it will happen? The fact is that Jesus will return, and no matter much contemplating we do, it will be nothing like we expected.

The best thing we can do is to draw close to him, even as it gets more and more difficult to do so, so that we are ready, regardless of how or when the events in the final chapter of the bible occur.  :)

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There is evidence for all arguments, what I always find myself wondering is -- why? Why bother wondering how or when it will happen? The fact is that Jesus will return, and no matter much contemplating we do, it will be nothing like we expected.

The best thing we can do is to draw close to him, even as it gets more and more difficult to do so, so that we are ready, regardless of how or when the events in the final chapter of the bible occur. :)

My response would be: why not? Everybody is interested in something, so why not study eschatology (and theology in general)? Besides, seeking truth is a worthy task in its own right, no matter the subject.

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I'm not exactly opposed to a doctrine of imminence. Unlike most mid- and post-tribulationists, I don't think Revelation requires us to see the Tribulation as spanning a literal 7 years immediately preceding Jesus' return. The only thing that seems to be necessary before the end is the fall of "Babylon," which contextually is almost certainly Rome. That already happened, so I don't think it's impossible that Jesus could return at any time.

Rome?  Why Rome?  Some scholars believe the harlot, the Babylon mentioned in Revelation is Mecca, which makes sense, given the whole Islam-Christan, Mohammed Jesus stuff that's been going on for ages. Christians and roman Catholics have a less violent history, we haven't killed each other in the last 50 years or so.

Babel( a root form of of the word Babylon), as in the Tower of Babel translates into "House of Allah", just with a different accent.

I got the information from here, it's a good read.

http://shoebat.com/2015/06/29/tomorrow-you-will-see-the-star-of-bethlehem-a-sign-that-christs-second-coming-is-around-the-corner/

 

Edited by Boogles

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Rome? Why Rome?

Lots of reasons. Most explicit is the angel's identification of the woman as sitting on seven hills (Rev. 17:9). Rome was well known as the city that sat upon seven hills, and anyone in John's day who read such a statement would immediately recognize that reference. That they were intended to do so is evidenced by the angel saying he was explaining the sign. If seven hills is offered as an explanation to John (and by extension his readers), it would have to be for a city they recognized by that description. Islam and Mecca don't fit that bill.

There are other evidences as well. The description of Babylon's economic status is loaded with references to Rome's imports and exports. The kings serving her would be easily be identified with the many puppet kings Rome installed in its provinces.

In addition to all of this, Babylon was already a standard code word for Rome among Jews. I'd have to go back and find the references, but commentators already mostly agree that John uses this code in his letters. This is probably a result of Rome basically taking the same role that Babylon once had: oppressive, immoral pagan empire.

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I keep hoping this topic will take off more than it has. :P

My views originated as the ultra-pentacostal, left behind, "Jesus will come back in my lifetime" crowd, and then with deconversion it all became nonsense and not worth the thought; so I feel that I lack an understanding of more reasonable intermediates so that I'm unable to have good discussions about it, but at the same time it's still not a big enough concern for me to actively research it. :P

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I don't have a strong opinion because I haven't done much research about it. I lack motivation because it seems like an unimportant doctrine. If we accept the second coming and bodily resurrection (which you can get from the Nicene Creed), why do the details of eschatological history matter?

That said, I'm sure it does matter since people much better informed than me care. What are your reasons for caring Caleb?

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I don't have a strong opinion because I haven't done much research about it. I lack motivation because it seems like an unimportant doctrine. If we accept the second coming and bodily resurrection (which you can get from the Nicene Creed), why do the details of eschatological history matter?

That said, I'm sure it does matter since people much better informed than me care. What are your reasons for caring Caleb?

On one hand, I actually don't care much. To me this debate is largely a fun and light-hearted break from the weightier matters I'm usually wrestling with. It's like putting down the Summa Theologica to read Left Behind for a while.

That said, I have developed quite a distaste for the way so many people in the evangelical world are so convinced of a pre-tribulation Rapture, mainly because the more I study it the more it seems like an entirely abiblical tradition. That's not itself horrible, but it's compounded by the way most of these people are also practically solo Scriptura and denounce all sorts of Catholic dogmas for a lack of Scriptural root. I don't enjoy seeing the pot call the kettle black.

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To re-open some discussion. I was listening to my mother the other day. She is a Baptized Baptist. She said she believes that we will all suffer through the signs, including having to either accept or deny the mark of the beast.

 

I want to know other views on this area.

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To re-open some discussion. I was listening to my mother the other day. She is a Baptized Baptist. She said she believes that we will all suffer through the signs, including having to either accept or deny the mark of the beast.

 

I want to know other views on this area.

That sounds post-tribulational. I would more or less agree that we will live through whatever constitutes the end of the age, but I wouldn't necessarily expect details such as the "mark of the beast," which I tend to take in a preterist fashion.

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I suppose that I believe we will suffer through the entire period, then gathered together with the dead that were in Christ, and taken to heaven. But I don't believe that will happen until after the second coming. 

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I suppose that I believe we will suffer through the entire period, then gathered together with the dead that were in Christ, and taken to heaven. But I don't believe that will happen until after the second coming.

Taken to heaven? This reminds me: do you think the Millennial Reign will follow?

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Taken to heaven? This reminds me: do you think the Millennial Reign will follow?

Hmmm, I suppose my wording was bad, I would say that we aren't taken into heaven, but that a new "heaven" will be established on earth, if that makes sense. My belief on the rapture isn't complete, so I hope to learn/understand more from what others are saying. 

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Hmmm, I suppose my wording was bad, I would say that we aren't taken into heaven, but that a new "heaven" will be established on earth, if that makes sense. My belief on the rapture isn't complete, so I hope to learn/understand more from what others are saying.

It seems that we substantially agree, then.

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