Jump to content
Nicene Nerd

Baptismal Regeneration

Recommended Posts

So, I think I'm going towards a form of baptismal regeneration, because Scripture and tradition both seem to support it pretty straightforwardly. For those unfamiliar with the doctrine, it's pretty straightforward:

Regeneration and the beginning of salvation's benefits happen at baptism.

 

Convince me otherwise, or tell me why I'm right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Baptism is just a way of showing others that your saved. It is nothing else. It can't save you or give you special things. And baptism means full immersion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Baptism is just a way of showing others that your saved. It is nothing else. It can't save you or give you special things. And baptism means full immersion

I think the Bible clearly says otherwise. Examples:

"Or are you unaware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in a new way of life." Romans 6:3-4

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ like a garment." Galatians 3:27

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 3:21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Bible clearly says otherwise. Examples:"Or are you unaware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in a new way of life." Romans 6:3-4"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ like a garment." Galatians 3:27"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 3:21

I would say otherwise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're disagreeing with the Bible?

I'm agreeing with what the kjv bible says. I also think it's the right bible

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm agreeing with what the kjv bible says. I also think it's the right bible

You're 100% wrong about the KJV being any better. But guess what? The KJV says the same thing:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:27

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 3:21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're 100% wrong about the KJV being any better. But guess what? The KJV says the same thing:"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:27"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 3:21

It isn't a requirement :) cheers :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you're just going to ignore the Bible again?

I'm not ignoring it. I'm telling the truth and your just scared to accept it. I was baptized, but still, I don't think anyone who doesn't will go to Hell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not ignoring it. I'm telling the truth and your just scared to accept it. I was baptized, but still, I don't think anyone who doesn't will go to Hell.

Why would I be scared to accept the "truth?" And I don't think not getting baptized means Hell. But I do think baptism plays an important role in regeneration and salvation.

Anyway, just saying you're not ignoring the Bible doesn't make it so. You haven't responded to any of those verses to show how they are compatible with your view that baptism is only a symbol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would I be scared to accept the "truth?" And I don't think not getting baptized means Hell. But I do think baptism plays an important role in regeneration and salvation.

Anyway, just saying you're not ignoring the Bible doesn't make it so. You haven't responded to any of those verses to show how they are compatible with your view that baptism is only a symbol.

you my friend didn't listen in Sunday school then...

I'm done here cause this is just really an ignorant post. Now if someone says baptism isn't full immersion. Lord take me now

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you my friend didn't listen in Sunday school then...

I'm done here cause this is just really an ignorant post. Now if someone says baptism isn't full immersion. Lord take me now

So, as always, you ignore everything everyone says and just respond with ignorant one-liners. I hope you know how sinful, immature, and disrespectful that is to everyone, though you do it all the time. You really should be ashamed of yourself, Bryce. You debate in the most un-Christlike way imaginable, and are willing to completely ignore reason, the Bible, and everything anything says if it doesn't go with what you already believe. That is sin, and you really should repent. Not only will it make you a more godly person, but people might actually not get frustrated with you all the time. So please, unless you are going to stop this nonsense, do not respond further to my thread, or any post I make.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could be misinterpreting this, but in the last verse in parenthesis "Not putting away the filth of flesh, but the answer of good conscience to God" to me means that it doesn't save you, (not putting away the filth of flesh) but it shows that you're saved (an answer of good conscience to God).

So the way I interpretted it, is that putting away the filth of flesh means covering your sins, and an answer of good conscience to God means that it's just a good thing to do for God.

I hope that makes sense and isn't just stupid, I kinda just woke up and I'm not usually on these threads. XD Anyways.. Do with that what you will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could be misinterpreting this, but in the last verse in parenthesis "Not putting away the filth of flesh, but the answer of good conscience to God" to me means that it doesn't save you, (not putting away the filth of flesh) but it shows that you're saved (an answer of good conscience to God).

So the way I interpretted it, is that putting away the filth of flesh means covering your sins, and an answer of good conscience to God means that it's just a good thing to do for God.

I hope that makes sense and isn't just stupid, I kinda just woke up and I'm not usually on these threads. XD Anyways.. Do with that what you will.

I agree. With this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could be misinterpreting this, but in the last verse in parenthesis "Not putting away the filth of flesh, but the answer of good conscience to God" to me means that it doesn't save you, (not putting away the filth of flesh) but it shows that you're saved (an answer of good conscience to God).

So the way I interpretted it, is that putting away the filth of flesh means covering your sins, and an answer of good conscience to God means that it's just a good thing to do for God.

I hope that makes sense and isn't just stupid, I kinda just woke up and I'm not usually on these threads. XD Anyways.. Do with that what you will.

Your reading is sensible and not stupid at all. Most people with a Baptist view of baptism would use something like it. Nonetheless, I do not think it is the correct one. I think the contrast between the removal of dirt from the body and the appeal of a good conscience towards God is about the effect of baptism, not the nature of baptism.

Basically, the difference is this:

A paraphrase of the verse in your view (as I understand it): Baptism saves you, but by baptism I don't mean the washing in the water that cleans your body, but the appeal of a good conscience which baptism symbolizes.

A paraphrase of the verse in my view: Baptism saves you. It does not simply remove dirt from your body, but cleanses the conscience and appeals to God for salvation.

The problem with your view, I would suggest, is that it basically becomes, "Baptism saves you, but just kidding, I just mean it symbolizes your salvation." That could be right, but doesn't seem likely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Baptism is a Sacrament, and was instituted by Jesus when He was baptized by John the Baptist.

Since we are supposed to follow in Christ's life, we should be baptized as well.

 

Baptism is the beginning of our life as christians. It cleanses our souls of original sin and allows us to gain the natural graces in the future God will give us. It also makes us fully the children of God. Only in very special cases can someone enter heaven without Baptism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Baptism is a Sacrament, and was instituted by Jesus when He was baptized by John the Baptist.

Since we are supposed to follow in Christ's life, we should be baptized as well.

 

Baptism is the beginning of our life as christians. It cleanses our souls of original sin and allows us to gain the natural graces in the future God will give us. It also makes us fully the children of God. Only in very special cases can someone enter heaven without Baptism.

If I may..God cleansed your soul from sin and allowed you to gain natural graces in the future when he died on the cross. And anyone can enter Heaven without baptism. It isn't a requirement. As someone who listens very well in church, and to older folk from way before any of us here were alive, I can say what I stated is pretty clear and to the point

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I may..God cleansed your soul from sin and allowed you to gain natural graces in the future when he died on the cross. And anyone can enter Heaven without baptism. It isn't a requirement. As someone who listens very well in church, and to older folk from way before any of us here were alive, I can say what I stated is pretty clear and to the point

Please share some verses about why baptism is unnecessary. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bold Prediction: Caleb becomes Anglican or Catholic, but I'm betting Catholic.

 

You're certainly making the fast track there, sir. ;)

Honestly, if I ever went through such a major shift I'd ever find an Auburn Avenue theology Presbyterian church, of if things got crazy enough I might go Orthodox.

 

Pertinent to the actual discussion, can someone be baptized and non-regenerate?

I suppose it depends how we conceive of regeneration. At present my impulse is to see regeneration and the new birth as primarily ongoing, transforming participation in the new creation realized in apocalyptic immanence by the Spirit in the Church, in which case the answer would be "no." Insomuch as baptism ingrafts into the Church and its life, it regenerates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matthew 3:13-15 To fulfill all righteousness. (Note: not to get righteousness) Meaning that Christ did everything right.

Matthew 28:18-20 To fulfill the command of God. The Great Commission involves preaching, teaching, and baptizing, in that order.

1 Peter 3:21 To produce a clear conscience, because you have done the will of God. I quote here 1 Peter 3:21 in full to show that Baptism will not remove sin. "The like figure where unto even baptism doth also save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Notice it is a figure (figurative) and

Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,

But the answer of a good conscience toward God.

A good conscience will not save you.

(Source:http://www.holybiblesays.org/articles.php?ID=21)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 Peter 3:21 To produce a clear conscience, because you have done the will of God. I quote here 1 Peter 3:21 in full to show that Baptism will not remove sin. "The like figure where unto even baptism doth also save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Notice it is a figure (figurative) and

Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,

But the answer of a good conscience toward God.

A good conscience will not save you.

(Source: http://www.holybiblesays.org/articles.php?ID=21)

Bryce, I already gave an alternative, I would suggest, more likely interpretation of this passage, and explained why alternatives like yours seem problematic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 Peter 3:21 To produce a clear conscience, because you have done the will of God. I quote here 1 Peter 3:21 in full to show that Baptism will not remove sin. "The like figure where unto even baptism doth also save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Notice it is a figure (figurative) and

Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,

But the answer of a good conscience toward God.

A good conscience will not save you.

(Source: http://www.holybiblesays.org/articles.php?ID=21)

If you read the verse before this, you see that St. Peter is calling the flood of Noah a symbol of people being saved by water, which now shows how Baptism saves the Christian. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I'm also going to quote Peter Leithart on 1 Peter 3:21. Here's from his book The Baptized Body. I apologize in advance for the length:

Peter crowns this trend [in the NT about baptismal efficacy] with the statement that "baptism now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21). The qualification Peter introduces ("not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience") does not, as often thought, diminish the efficacy he attributes to baptism. It is not as if Peter says, "baptism now saves you" and then adds, as a slight nuance, "but baptism doesn't really save you." On the contrary, the clause strengthens Peter's point about baptismal efficacy. This qualification makes no sense if Peter is merely contrasting baptism to a daily bath: Would anyone be tempted to believe baptism was a bath to remove dirt? If not, why does Peter make the point? As is clear in from Hebrews, the contrast of "flesh" and "conscience" is one way of stating the contrast of Old and New Covenants (cf. Heb. 9:13-14; 10:22). And this is what Peter is talking about: Baptism, Peter says, does not remove fleshly defilement, as did the cleansing rites of the Old Covenant (cf. Lev. 15; Heb. 9). Rather, Christian baptism cleanses so that the baptized has "an appeal to God for a good conscience." The New Covenant washing has a power greater than the power of the Old Covenant sacraments. Christian baptism penetrates beyond flesh and its defilements to cleanse the conscience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×