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Faithful Kevin

The God that did nothing

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Kevin,

 

I just want to say what you're feeling and going through is a very valid, very necessary struggle. While I personally can not answer or address your questions, I hope you can get fruitful conversation either on this site or in your real life. I know this probably doesn't mean much for you now, but I'm praying for you on your spiritual jury here. Regardless of where you end up (though I deeply hope it is back in Christianity somehow), I'm sure you are striving to be the best person you can. I really hope that you don't hold any anger in this studying either at people in your life who have preached Christianity in the past or what you have devoted your life to in the past and that you come to a calm place through all of this.

 

If you really want me to, I could try to take a swing at your answers, but I feel like you would just poke holes through them and it would leave you with unsatisfying and generic answers. 

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Kevin,

 

I just want to say what you're feeling and going through is a very valid, very necessary struggle. While I personally can not answer or address your questions, I hope you can get fruitful conversation either on this site or in your real life. I know this probably doesn't mean much for you now, but I'm praying for you on your spiritual jury here. Regardless of where you end up (though I deeply hope it is back in Christianity somehow), I'm sure you are striving to be the best person you can. I really hope that you don't hold any anger in this studying either at people in your life who have preached Christianity in the past or what you have devoted your life to in the past and that you come to a calm place through all of this.

 

If you really want me to, I could try to take a swing at your answers, but I feel like you would just poke holes through them and it would leave you with unsatisfying and generic answers. 

 

 

Hi, Zabby.

 

This is something I've accepted a few months ago.  It's not a struggle, however, I would have agreed that it was a few months ago.  Now I'm simply presenting these questions and setting up arguments in order to let everyone see that Christianity is absurd in its moral sense.

 

It's very unlikely I will associate with any religion sooner or later.  I haven't found any Christian counter-arguments convincing enough to change my mind. 

 

I understand why people say "God is dead".  To me, He is dead in the sense that He is nowhere to be seen.  Granted, the bible says none can see him, however, not even his miracles are anywhere to be seen!   The only effect I've seen is in the minds of people who believe.  I've also seen how it affects their feelings.  A lot has to do with feelings. 

 

It would be foolish for me to return to Christianity, not just because I've already rejected it, but because it's completely against my moral character.  Most Christians have a better sense of morality than the god they worship.  Worst of all is they don't challenge God's morality.  They simply choose to live with it.  The bible, their ultimate authority (or at least it's supposed to be), for which they base their belief on, tells them that God's attacks against nations are justified because of the people's wickedness, or more realistically, because people adored other gods and refused to adore a god that was foreign to them.

 

God is severe and cruel many times in the bible.  I can't take any christian seriously if they choose to ignore or justify Yahweh's rampage, killing hundreds of thousands, the killing of infants, destroying cities, and let's not go so far to the past, his ABSENCE in our world.  Where are his miracles?   The blind are always blind.  Cancer is rampant.  Innocent children die of hunger. 

 

Where is your god?  There is no way I will believe in Yahweh.  He can't be real.

 

Zabby, I respect you very much.  If you'd like to take a swing, go ahead.

 

Thanks for praying for me. 

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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Where is your god?  There is no way I will believe in Yahweh.  He can't be real.

Maybe that's just a poor understanding of God. (One that you are right to reject. But perhaps there is a better way to understand God.)

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Hi, Zabby.

 

This is something I've accepted a few months ago.  It's not a struggle, however, I would have agreed that it was a few months ago.  Now I'm simply presenting these questions and setting up arguments in order to let everyone see that Christianity is absurd in its moral sense.

 

It's very unlikely I will associate with any religion sooner or later.  I haven't found any Christian counter-arguments convincing enough to change my mind. 

 

I understand why people say "God is dead".  To me, He is dead in the sense that He is nowhere to be seen.  Granted, the bible says none can see him, however, not even his miracles are anywhere to be seen!   The only effect I've seen is in the minds of people who believe.  I've also seen how it affects their feelings.  A lot has to do with feelings. 

 

It would be foolish for me to return to Christianity, not just because I've already rejected it, but because it's completely against my moral character.  Most Christians have a better sense of morality than the god they worship.  Worst of all is they don't challenge God's morality.  They simply choose to live with it.  The bible, their ultimate authority (or at least it's supposed to be), for which they base their belief on, tells them that God's attacks against nations are justified because of the people's wickedness, or more realistically, because people adored other gods and refused to adore a god that was foreign to them.

 

God is severe and cruel many times in the bible.  I can't take any christian seriously if they choose to ignore or justify Yahweh's rampage, killing hundreds of thousands, the killing of infants, destroying cities, and let's not go so far to the past, his ABSENCE in our world.  Where are his miracles?   The blind are always blind.  Cancer is rampant.  Innocent children die of hunger. 

 

Where is your god?  There is no way I will believe in Yahweh.  He can't be real.

 

Zabby, I respect you very much.  If you'd like to take a swing, go ahead.

 

Thanks for praying for me.

Miracles still happen my friend. And all of the bad stuff in the world is because of sin. Caused by Adam and Eve thousands of years ago.

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Maybe that's just a poor understanding of God. (One that you are right to reject. But perhaps there is a better way to understand God.)

 

Enlighten me.

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Enlighten me.

Perhaps not every story in the Bible is an absolute, straight-forward tale about the character of God. Perhaps miracles aren't supernatural interventions. Perhaps faith is less about ignoring the present reality and more about being fully confronted by it and participating in it. 

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Perhaps not every story in the Bible is an absolute, straight-forward tale about the character of God. Perhaps miracles aren't supernatural interventions. Perhaps faith is less about ignoring the present reality and more about being fully confronted by it and participating in it. 

 

May you explain your views in detail?  Perhaps show some examples?

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Miracles still happen my friend. And all of the bad stuff in the world is because of sin. Caused by Adam and Eve thousands of years ago.

 

Is that so?  Tell me, do you know anyone who was crippled and by a miracle of Yahweh they are now functioning normally?  Do you know anyone who was blind and now can see?  Do you know anyone who had missing limbs suddenly regain them?   Do you know anyone that has died and days later resurrected?  

 

The bad stuff is because of sin.  Do you remember who created evil to begin with?   Yes, Yahweh.  He is responsible for this chaos, and he does nothing to fix it.  No miracles, constant mystery in his identity; chaos.

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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Is that so?  Tell me, do you know anyone who was crippled and by a miracle of Yahweh they are now functioning normally?  Do you know anyone who was blind and now can see?  Do you know anyone who had missing limbs suddenly regain them?   Do you know anyone that has died and days later resurrected?  

 

The bad stuff is because of sin.  Do you remember who created evil to begin with?   Yes, Yahweh.  He is responsible for this chaos, and he does nothing to fix it.  No miracles, constant mystery in his identity; chaos.

My grandfather should,have died back in WW2. A truck he was in rolled over, crushing his entire leg. Today, is able to walk on this leg even when back to ww2 he literally had no chance of using it ever again.

And no, satan created sin. And angels followed.

I don't know why a lot of us keep replying to you, when all ya probably will do is say, that's not true and whatever. But that's none of my business, as we are trying to help ya

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I must say ironically the fact you chose the words "Where is your God?"

 

I think some people are built with faith.

My mother was horribly abused as a child, and one of the things I know of is how one of the men she had to stay with, would hit her and ask her "Where is your God now?" when she prayed. And today, she is still praying.

Faith does require trust, and understanding that God cannot be completely rationalized by the human mind. In my studies of the more complex side of my faith, I feel like many of my faith questions are being answered, as I've struggled with my faith many times as well, particularly the aspect of hell and suffering. My answers to this I doubt with be suitable enough for you by the statement you made above. Actually, the above statement says you have come here simply to try and destroy our faith, because you do not believe anymore, but I tell you this because regardless of what makes no sense to you, makes complete sense to someone else who may not be here now without faith of a better future.

This is all I have to add.

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Perhaps not every story in the Bible is an absolute, straight-forward tale about the character of God. Perhaps miracles aren't supernatural interventions. Perhaps faith is less about ignoring the present reality and more about being fully confronted by it and participating in it. 

This is actually a really nice definition of things...

Perhaps instead of complaining about what isn;t right...we should do something about what is wrong...

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My grandfather should,have died back in WW2. A truck he was in rolled over, crushing his entire leg. Today, is able to walk on this leg even when back to ww2 he literally had no chance of using it ever again.

And no, satan created sin. And angels followed.

I don't know why a lot of us keep replying to you, when all ya probably will do is say, that's not true and whatever. But that's none of my business, as we are trying to help ya

God created Satan, so God created sin by the transitive property of creating stuff.

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My grandfather should,have died back in WW2. A truck he was in rolled over, crushing his entire leg. Today, is able to walk on this leg even when back to ww2 he literally had no chance of using it ever again.

And no, satan created sin. And angels followed.

I don't know why a lot of us keep replying to you, when all ya probably will do is say, that's not true and whatever. But that's none of my business, as we are trying to help ya

 

That's good news for your grandfather and I understand why you believe it's a miracle he is walking today.  On the other hand, our bodies are resilient when it comes to injuries, they tend to heal themselves.  However, I'm talking about the down and dirty illnesses that are supposed to be cured by miracles, like the ones I've mentioned above.  I am certain you've never witnessed the blind regain their sight or limbs appear out of no-where, or people resurrected which are miracles depicted in the bible.  The bible says we are supposed to see those miracles... but they are nowhere to be found.  It puts a big question mark on the entire bible and on Yahweh.

 

"And no, satan created sin. And angels followed."  The bible never mentions that Satan created sin.  God created everything good and bad.  He created light and darkness.  He created evil.  Here is a bible verse for you.  Take a look:

 

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

 

It doesn't get more clear than that.   God created evil, watched how Adam and Eve were deceived, did nothing to protect them, cursed them with death and condemns anyone to an eternity in hell who does not repent and serve him.   That's the truth of Yahweh in a nutshell, not to mention how he killed hundreds of thousands or even millions. 

 

Do you understand this at all?

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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I must say ironically the fact you chose the words "Where is your God?"

 

I think some people are built with faith.

My mother was horribly abused as a child, and one of the things I know of is how one of the men she had to stay with, would hit her and ask her "Where is your God now?" when she prayed. And today, she is still praying.

Faith does require trust, and understanding that God cannot be completely rationalized by the human mind. In my studies of the more complex side of my faith, I feel like many of my faith questions are being answered, as I've struggled with my faith many times as well, particularly the aspect of hell and suffering. My answers to this I doubt with be suitable enough for you by the statement you made above. Actually, the above statement says you have come here simply to try and destroy our faith, because you do not believe anymore, but I tell you this because regardless of what makes no sense to you, makes complete sense to someone else who may not be here now without faith of a better future.

This is all I have to add.

 

Is it ironic because I capitalized the G?

 

Although I'm sorry your mother went through that type of abuse, don't associate me.

 

I'm here to show everyone Christianity is absurd, and I've asked a number of questions that I hope allows people to step back and think about the god they worship and the religion they follow. 

 

Who are you to say I am not suitable?

 

I'm challenging people to think for themselves.  Understand that this is a debate room.  I'm going to ask questions that touch on Christianity's core.  Most of my questions have gotten no answers from users here.  I might find them elsewhere, but I'm doubtful that will ever happen.

 

I think people deserve to live a life without a burden.  The gospel spreads terror, in the sense that we are all destined to hell if we do not repent, and that is a burden that I find unnecessary in this life.  We are free to think and feel.  To experience life at its fullest.

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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That's good news for your grandfather and I understand why you believe it's a miracle he is walking today.  On the other hand, our bodies are resilient when it comes to injuries, they tend to heal themselves.  However, I'm talking about the down and dirty illnesses that are supposed to be cured by miracles, like the ones I've mentioned above.  I am certain you've never witnessed the blind regain their sight or limbs appear out of no-where, or people resurrected which are miracles depicted in the bible.  The bible says we are supposed to see those miracles... but they are nowhere to be found.  It puts a big question mark on the entire bible and on Yahweh.

 

"And no, satan created sin. And angels followed."  The bible never mentions that Satan created sin.  God indeed creating everything good and everything bad.  He created light and darkness.  He also created evil.  Here is a bible verse for you.  Take a look:

 

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

 

It doesn't get more clear than that.   God created evil, watched how Adam and Eve were deceived, did nothing to protect them, cursed them with death and condemns anyone to an eternity in hell who does not repent and serve him.   That's the truth of Yahweh in a nutshell, not to mention how he killed hundreds of thousands or even millions. 

 

Do you understand this at all?

Mind you my gramps leg was shattered

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I'll do the best I can to answer your points, but I'm no theology professor.

 

 

Remember, death is a result of the fall of man, which is where we messed up. I'm afraid that your pinning things which man should be responsible for on God. I see why you say God was responsible for infanticide, but if you look further back then you see that it all goes back to man's first sin in the Garden of Eden. So in a short-term or from near sighted perspective, you could say that God is responsible for permitting the angle of death to go and kill the firstborn males. But when you take a step back and look at the big picture you start to see that it all goes back to the Fall of Man.

 

And he allowed evil, and sin to enter the world when Eve first disobeyed God by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God preferred giving man freewill at the chance of their sinning, than forcing man to obey and worship Him without any say in the matter. I can't currently think of any time in the Bible which God punishes someone for not worshiping Him, I know times when God punishes for disobeying, but none for not worshiping. 

 

How God cares about us, and about what we do is what is so great about the Gospel, and one of the things which really sets us apart from other religions. We see over and over in the Bible how God loves us, and cares for us, I'm not completely sure why He cares for us as much as He does, considering how messed up the world is; but He loves us so much that He sent His son Jesus to die on the cross so that we don't have to go to hell for our sin. And you're right, we do see in the Bible that God is a jealous God. But God is not a physical being, and we also can find in the Bible verses about no man can see the face of God and live, His glory is just too much for Humans. And He's not a physical being. Though God has come to earth, and has walked this earth in the form of Jesus. So He did show Himself to the world, but the world rejected Him.

 

That's another piece of the Gospel which makes true Christianity so unique of beautiful than other religions. Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your moth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Once you're with God, you don't need to have a fear of going to hell. Everyone sins, even Christians, and as a Christian you don't need to worry that your sin will keep you from Heaven, you should try to do the right thing, but that isn't required to get to Heaven and keep yourself from hell. In Ephesians 2:8-9 is says, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. And it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no man may boast." And you're asking about miracles; I witnessed one just a few days ago. We were praying over a girl who had a problem with the bones in her arm, she couldn't turn her arms/ wrists all the way so she had a very limited range of motion. We prayed, and she was healed so she could move her arms and wrists all the way. I've also seen and heard of many other miracles while on missions trips.

 

I'd say that hell is the just rewards of our sin, if we mess or sin up just once, we miss the mark of God's perfection, and without Jesus there would be no chance at Heaven. But because of Jesus we can go to Heaven forever. In a sense hell could be considered a threat, but I prefer to think of it more as the punishment, the result, of our sin. It's like if you're on trial for some crime, and you loose the trial you get a punishment, whether it be prison, a fine, or probation. It's the same thing with our sins, they're like a crime, which we get judged for, and hell is the punishment if we haven't already come to Jesus. I understand the whole questioning with how can God be just if He sends people to hell. No human can fully understand God's standard of justice. What might look fine to us might look evil to Him, and what might look harsh to us, might look just to God. You just have to remember that our standard of justice and God's standard of justice are two very different things. 

I'll do the best I can to answer your points, but I'm no theology professor.

 

 

Remember, death is a result of the fall of man, which is where we messed up. I'm afraid that your pinning things which man should be responsible for on God. I see why you say God was responsible for infanticide, but if you look further back then you see that it all goes back to man's first sin in the Garden of Eden. So in a short-term or from near sighted perspective, you could say that God is responsible for permitting the angle of death to go and kill the firstborn males. But when you take a step back and look at the big picture you start to see that it all goes back to the Fall of Man.

 

And he allowed evil, and sin to enter the world when Eve first disobeyed God by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God preferred giving man freewill at the chance of their sinning, than forcing man to obey and worship Him without any say in the matter. I can't currently think of any time in the Bible which God punishes someone for not worshiping Him, I know times when God punishes for disobeying, but none for not worshiping. 

 

How God cares about us, and about what we do is what is so great about the Gospel, and one of the things which really sets us apart from other religions. We see over and over in the Bible how God loves us, and cares for us, I'm not completely sure why He cares for us as much as He does, considering how messed up the world is; but He loves us so much that He sent His son Jesus to die on the cross so that we don't have to go to hell for our sin. And you're right, we do see in the Bible that God is a jealous God. But God is not a physical being, and we also can find in the Bible verses about no man can see the face of God and live, His glory is just too much for Humans. And He's not a physical being. Though God has come to earth, and has walked this earth in the form of Jesus. So He did show Himself to the world, but the world rejected Him.

 

That's another piece of the Gospel which makes true Christianity so unique of beautiful than other religions. Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your moth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Once you're with God, you don't need to have a fear of going to hell. Everyone sins, even Christians, and as a Christian you don't need to worry that your sin will keep you from Heaven, you should try to do the right thing, but that isn't required to get to Heaven and keep yourself from hell. In Ephesians 2:8-9 is says, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. And it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no man may boast." And you're asking about miracles; I witnessed one just a few days ago. We were praying over a girl who had a problem with the bones in her arm, she couldn't turn her arms/ wrists all the way so she had a very limited range of motion. We prayed, and she was healed so she could move her arms and wrists all the way. I've also seen and heard of many other miracles while on missions trips.

 

I'd say that hell is the just rewards of our sin, if we mess or sin up just once, we miss the mark of God's perfection, and without Jesus there would be no chance at Heaven. But because of Jesus we can go to Heaven forever. In a sense hell could be considered a threat, but I prefer to think of it more as the punishment, the result, of our sin. It's like if you're on trial for some crime, and you loose the trial you get a punishment, whether it be prison, a fine, or probation. It's the same thing with our sins, they're like a crime, which we get judged for, and hell is the punishment if we haven't already come to Jesus. I understand the whole questioning with how can God be just if He sends people to hell. No human can fully understand God's standard of justice. What might look fine to us might look evil to Him, and what might look harsh to us, might look just to God. You just have to remember that our standard of justice and God's standard of justice are two very different things. 
Edited by FOX545

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May you explain your views in detail?  Perhaps show some examples?

To say the Bible is inspired isn't necessarily an endorsement that the Hebrews were perfectly reflective of God's will (granted, the text might heavily imply such, but of course the people who wrote the book are going to write that God was on their side :P ). Which is to say that historical exegesis is essential: understanding the narrative and audience is the only reasonable way to approach such a text. It is naive to expect it to have clear and obvious meaning to a culture thousands of years away. (Now most people seem to disagree with me here, but I think the only proper hermeneutic starts with God actually being good...but I guess that makes me heretical).

 

As for miracles, my full response would go far off-topic lol But the gist is that to view God's working in the world as interventionist or coercive or overturning the natural order that God had instituted is actually a more weak god than what I suggest, which is a god that is able to do things right the first time and not have to run around fixing mistakes all the time. (There's way more I could say and this kinda mischaracterizes my thoughts, but it is the most direct way to answer the question.)

 

And then there's faith, which seems to be typically explained as thinking counter to what's reasonable - and that might partly be accurate but not in the way I've often heard it. I prefer an existential rendering of faith, where faith is a response to the absurdity of existence.

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Is it ironic because I capitalized the G?

 

Although I'm sorry your mother went through that type of abuse, don't associate me.

 

I'm here to show everyone Christianity is absurd, and I've asked a number of questions that I hope allows people to step back and think about the god they worship and the religion they follow. 

 

Who are you to say I am not suitable?

 

I'm challenging people to think for themselves.  Understand that this is a debate room.  I'm going to ask questions that touch on Christianity's core.  Most of my questions have gotten no answers from users here.  I might find them elsewhere, but I'm doubtful that will ever happen.

 

I think people deserve to live a life without a burden.  The gospel spreads terror, in the sense that we are all destined to hell if we do not repent, and that is a burden that I find unnecessary in this life.  We are free to think and feel.  To experience life at its fullest.

First hand, I am not suggesting you are not suitable for faith. All men were made to ultimately see the Beatific Vision.

I am saying, none of the answers which I give you, will be suitable for you, but they are to me. And they work for me, and I believe. I do not think my faith is slavery, I think God has given me a free choice to do as I wish, and for you, He even gave you the free choice to not believe in Him. You have come here to question Christianity, and try to disprove us, rather than really openly seeking the faith. I could write you a very long and thorough argument on my behalf but I doubt you will truly take it in, without finding a problem with it. Hence, unless you desperately desire it, I will not go there.

To say "life without burden" is quite foolish in my mind. With or without God you are going to suffer. I have had many sufferings already and some of them will burden me forever. That has nothing to with the "fear strikening Gospels". Don't you see I already have the ability to think and feel? Even as a believer, I do those things! I think it is also quite harsh of you to call my faith absurd. I could say that of every other faith but I shall not, because it isn't true. What is absurd to YOU is truth to someone else, and I think you should have more respect for that.

Just because you chose to leave the faith, does not mean others should be pushed to follow if they do not want to. Simple as that.

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Where is your god?

 

Also, whenever I hear (or ask) that question, what comes to mind is this (I meant to post it before, but forgot to look it up it earlier :P )

 

 

(Those with weaker stomachs who don't like reading about Nazi death-camp atrocities might not want to read)

“Then came the march past the victims. The two men were no longer alive. Their tongues were hanging out,

swollen and bluish. But the third rope was still moving: the child, too light, was still breathing...

And so he remained for more than half an hour, lingering between life and death, writhing before our eyes.

And we were forced to look at him at close range. He was still alive when I passed him. His tongue was still

red, his eyes not yet extinguished.

Behind me, I heard the same man asking:

"For God's sake, where is God?"

And from within me, I heard a voice answer:

"Where He is? This is where--hanging here from this gallows..." ”

- Elie Wiesel, Night

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Where is our God?

Bleeding on the Cross for you in your sinful flesh.

I could offer other responses, but whatever I say on this topic must ultimately start and end there. There is no God other than or behind the back of the suffering Christ.

So where is He when we suffer? Suffering with us, for us, in order to rescue us.

But that's not very intellectually satisfying, I know, however emotionally powerful it can be. And indeed, the intellectual obstacles easily blunt the emotional impact.

So why the Fall? Why did God let sin enter human existence, and bring suffering upon us all? To some extent, I appeal to mystery, but I also hold a doctrine that I call supralapsarian creationism. This is just a fancy way of saying that God's decision to create the world, including all people, and to recreate it in Jesus, was entirely independent of and logically prior to His knowledge that humanity would end up in sin. God knows and has always known what man would do, but only because He freely chose to create man. God's foreknowledge is not a static property but God's active choice, a choice which is first based on His choice to be man's God and Creator. God decided to create us without regard for how we would respond, despite having that knowledge. It was, at the risk of sounding irreverent, an act of reckless love. If you wish to blame Him for that, He has already owned up to it and accepted punishment.

Also, Kevin, with regards to your problems about Hell and threatening, I would respond that Hell is not a place God freely creates to punish people for breaking rules He arbitrarily makes. Rather, it must be recognized that God simply is, by virtue of being God, the sole source and nature of life and happiness. This cannot be otherwise. If there were another source, than that source would be a competing God. In addition, because Jesus is not only true God but true Man, and is the image of God in whom mankind was created, there is also no other source of legitimate humanity but Jesus. Hell, then, is what happens when people close themselves off to God in Christ. By rejecting Jesus, who is Himself life and bliss and humanity, they wind up reduced permanently to a state of death, misery, and sub-human "existence." And once you have fully cut yourself off in this way, there is hardly a "you" left to change your mind.

This, I should add, leads into where I disagree with your assessment of the Atonement. Jesus did not simply die to fulfill the arbitrary legal consequence of breaking God's rules so we can get off free. Instead, His death continued the work of His entire life: redeeming fallen human flesh to God. He came in a human nature with the same weaknesses as our own so that in His own human life He could carve out a place of perfect harmony between God and man, and deal with the problem of the cancerous sin which ends in the fate described above. He came under the pressure of all the world's sin so that, in dying under judgment yet without doing anything wrong, and then returning from the dead, He could leave sinful human existence condemned in the grave, and create in His new, resurrected humanity a way forward to purge all of us of our corrupting sins. Now, by union with His resurrected and sanctified humanity through His Spirit whom He poured out on us, we can participate in His new life, be rescued from the destructive powers of sin in us, and eventually share in His resurrected life. Ultimately, Jesus' death was not so much about human sacrifice for an angry God so much as it is the story of a God who determined to defeat evil by Himself submitting to its worst.

I realize that this is probably not entirely satisfactory, and that I have not even addressed some of your concerns at all. But I hope this alternative paradigm can be of some use.

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I'll do the best I can to answer your points, but I'm no theology professor.
 
 
Remember, death is a result of the fall of man, which is where we messed up. I'm afraid that your pinning things which man should be responsible for on God. I see why you say God was responsible for infanticide, but if you look further back then you see that it all goes back to man's first sin in the Garden of Eden. So in a short-term or from near sighted perspective, you could say that God is responsible for permitting the angle of death to go and kill the firstborn males. But when you take a step back and look at the big picture you start to see that it all goes back to the Fall of Man.
 
And he allowed evil, and sin to enter the world when Eve first disobeyed God by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God preferred giving man freewill at the chance of their sinning, than forcing man to obey and worship Him without any say in the matter. I can't currently think of any time in the Bible which God punishes someone for not worshiping Him, I know times when God punishes for disobeying, but none for not worshiping. 
 
How God cares about us, and about what we do is what is so great about the Gospel, and one of the things which really sets us apart from other religions. We see over and over in the Bible how God loves us, and cares for us, I'm not completely sure why He cares for us as much as He does, considering how messed up the world is; but He loves us so much that He sent His son Jesus to die on the cross so that we don't have to go to hell for our sin. And you're right, we do see in the Bible that God is a jealous God. But God is not a physical being, and we also can find in the Bible verses about no man can see the face of God and live, His glory is just too much for Humans. And He's not a physical being. Though God has come to earth, and has walked this earth in the form of Jesus. So He did show Himself to the world, but the world rejected Him.
 
That's another piece of the Gospel which makes true Christianity so unique of beautiful than other religions. Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your moth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Once you're with God, you don't need to have a fear of going to hell. Everyone sins, even Christians, and as a Christian you don't need to worry that your sin will keep you from Heaven, you should try to do the right thing, but that isn't required to get to Heaven and keep yourself from hell. In Ephesians 2:8-9 is says, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. And it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no man may boast." And you're asking about miracles; I witnessed one just a few days ago. We were praying over a girl who had a problem with the bones in her arm, she couldn't turn her arms/ wrists all the way so she had a very limited range of motion. We prayed, and she was healed so she could move her arms and wrists all the way. I've also seen and heard of many other miracles while on missions trips.
 
I'd say that hell is the just rewards of our sin, if we mess or sin up just once, we miss the mark of God's perfection, and without Jesus there would be no chance at Heaven. But because of Jesus we can go to Heaven forever. In a sense hell could be considered a threat, but I prefer to think of it more as the punishment, the result, of our sin. It's like if you're on trial for some crime, and you loose the trial you get a punishment, whether it be prison, a fine, or probation. It's the same thing with our sins, they're like a crime, which we get judged for, and hell is the punishment if we haven't already come to Jesus. I understand the whole questioning with how can God be just if He sends people to hell. No human can fully understand God's standard of justice. What might look fine to us might look evil to Him, and what might look harsh to us, might look just to God. You just have to remember that our standard of justice and God's standard of justice are two very different things. 
I'll do the best I can to answer your points, but I'm no theology professor.
 
 
Remember, death is a result of the fall of man, which is where we messed up. I'm afraid that your pinning things which man should be responsible for on God. I see why you say God was responsible for infanticide, but if you look further back then you see that it all goes back to man's first sin in the Garden of Eden. So in a short-term or from near sighted perspective, you could say that God is responsible for permitting the angle of death to go and kill the firstborn males. But when you take a step back and look at the big picture you start to see that it all goes back to the Fall of Man.
 
And he allowed evil, and sin to enter the world when Eve first disobeyed God by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God preferred giving man freewill at the chance of their sinning, than forcing man to obey and worship Him without any say in the matter. I can't currently think of any time in the Bible which God punishes someone for not worshiping Him, I know times when God punishes for disobeying, but none for not worshiping. 
 
How God cares about us, and about what we do is what is so great about the Gospel, and one of the things which really sets us apart from other religions. We see over and over in the Bible how God loves us, and cares for us, I'm not completely sure why He cares for us as much as He does, considering how messed up the world is; but He loves us so much that He sent His son Jesus to die on the cross so that we don't have to go to hell for our sin. And you're right, we do see in the Bible that God is a jealous God. But God is not a physical being, and we also can find in the Bible verses about no man can see the face of God and live, His glory is just too much for Humans. And He's not a physical being. Though God has come to earth, and has walked this earth in the form of Jesus. So He did show Himself to the world, but the world rejected Him.
 
That's another piece of the Gospel which makes true Christianity so unique of beautiful than other religions. Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your moth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Once you're with God, you don't need to have a fear of going to hell. Everyone sins, even Christians, and as a Christian you don't need to worry that your sin will keep you from Heaven, you should try to do the right thing, but that isn't required to get to Heaven and keep yourself from hell. In Ephesians 2:8-9 is says, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. And it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no man may boast." And you're asking about miracles; I witnessed one just a few days ago. We were praying over a girl who had a problem with the bones in her arm, she couldn't turn her arms/ wrists all the way so she had a very limited range of motion. We prayed, and she was healed so she could move her arms and wrists all the way. I've also seen and heard of many other miracles while on missions trips.
 
I'd say that hell is the just rewards of our sin, if we mess or sin up just once, we miss the mark of God's perfection, and without Jesus there would be no chance at Heaven. But because of Jesus we can go to Heaven forever. In a sense hell could be considered a threat, but I prefer to think of it more as the punishment, the result, of our sin. It's like if you're on trial for some crime, and you loose the trial you get a punishment, whether it be prison, a fine, or probation. It's the same thing with our sins, they're like a crime, which we get judged for, and hell is the punishment if we haven't already come to Jesus. I understand the whole questioning with how can God be just if He sends people to hell. No human can fully understand God's standard of justice. What might look fine to us might look evil to Him, and what might look harsh to us, might look just to God. You just have to remember that our standard of justice and God's standard of justice are two very different things. 

 

 

FOX545:
 
It's ok Fox.  I'm not a scientist nor a scholar.
 
 
What exactly is humankind responsible of according to my argument that if God loved Adam and Eve so much, then why didn't he protect them?  
You can't justify Yahweh commiting infanticide, period. God should be just as holy and good as Christians say he is.  Infanticide is not holy nor good.  
 
How would you feel and what would you think if Yahweh killed all American first-borns because of whatever reason yesterday?
 
 
I must correct you on the following when you wrote that God allowed the first sin to enter the world through Eve; Sin was present before Eve was created, else there wouldn't be a Lucifer.  "God preferred giving man freewill at the chance of their sinning, than forcing man to obey and worship Him without any say in the matter."  Yeah, but they're goin' to hell anyway.  This is where I go back to God not protecting his creation in the first place.  It's common sense for a father-figure to protect a child from lethal harm.  If God didn't want to see so many people perish he should have stopped Lucifer or not have created evil.
 
" I can't currently think of any time in the Bible which God punishes someone for not worshiping Him, I know times when God punishes for disobeying, but none for not worshiping. "
 
It's not explicitly mentioned, however, we can agree that disobeying is practically the same as not worshiping, correct?  Just take hell for example.  That is definitely how God punishes someone for not worshiping him.
 
I can't disagree more with your point about how much Yahweh cares for us (assuming you mean all human race).  If God really cared about us, then why don't we see his miracles? Why not protect the innocent from harm and death?  Why is he so mysterious?  Is it just that the only important thing to think about is Jesus' death being enough to prove God is with us and that God cares for us?  You said this world is messed up, so, why doesn't God care more about it to actually take care of us, his creation?   People show that they care about others by helping them.  God certainly shouldn't have a problem eliminating sicknesses, killing rapists or feeding those who starve, why doesn't he do anything?  Because he either doesn't want to or he doesn't exist.
 
 
And why does Jesus need to die and resurrect for God to give mankind a ticket to heaven?  Why not just forgive everyone?  
 
Isn't it funny how the One True God gets jealous of other gods despite the others being false?
 
 
You see, if miracles were real, the entire world would know about it.  Either Yahweh isn't doing the miracles or he simply picks his favorite people to heal because many people die of sickness despite having people pray over them.  No christian is sensible if they declare that the miracles of the bible are happening today.
 
"I understand the whole questioning with how can God be just if He sends people to hell. No human can fully understand God's standard of justice."
 
If no human can fully understand God's standard of justice, why worship him?
I sure wouldn't.  I wouldn't feel like worshiping a deity I don't fully understand.  Moreover, I couldn't ignore the fact that I believe it is unreasonable to punish individuals forever for things that were only temporary.  That is not just and claiming that we cannot fully understand Yahweh's standard of justice is an incredible excuse to ignore how absurd God's standards are.
 
 
"What might look fine to us might look evil to Him, and what might look harsh to us, might look just to God. You just have to remember that our standard of justice and God's standard of justice are two very different things. "
 
This only solidifies how mysterious Yawheh is, and that isn't a good thing.  You have no idea what God should or shouldn't do, so why in the world do you choose to worship him?
Edited by Faithful Kevin

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First hand, I am not suggesting you are not suitable for faith. All men were made to ultimately see the Beatific Vision.

I am saying, none of the answers which I give you, will be suitable for you, but they are to me. And they work for me, and I believe. I do not think my faith is slavery, I think God has given me a free choice to do as I wish, and for you, He even gave you the free choice to not believe in Him. You have come here to question Christianity, and try to disprove us, rather than really openly seeking the faith. I could write you a very long and thorough argument on my behalf but I doubt you will truly take it in, without finding a problem with it. Hence, unless you desperately desire it, I will not go there.

To say "life without burden" is quite foolish in my mind. With or without God you are going to suffer. I have had many sufferings already and some of them will burden me forever. That has nothing to with the "fear strikening Gospels". Don't you see I already have the ability to think and feel? Even as a believer, I do those things! I think it is also quite harsh of you to call my faith absurd. I could say that of every other faith but I shall not, because it isn't true. What is absurd to YOU is truth to someone else, and I think you should have more respect for that.

Just because you chose to leave the faith, does not mean others should be pushed to follow if they do not want to. Simple as that.

Thanks for clarifying.
 
There is something I need to point out.
You've mentioned that God gave you and me the free will to believe in him.
The problem is belief isn't a choice.  I find ghosts unbelievable, that's not my choice.  I find Yahweh unbelievable, again, not my choice.
 
Yes, I'm a former Christian, and I'm not here seeking faith.  I'm clearly here to question your beliefs.  I'm searching for answers, not the gospel, not the description of God, not the story of Adam and Eve, I'm here searching for logical answers against the questions that challenged the belief I had in Christianity.  I'm analyzing everyone's answers and hoping to find reasonable arguments.
 
I should have been more detailed when I mentioned that we all deserve a life without burden.  I meant to write, we all deserve a life without the burden of religion.  To some, the afterlife seems to be the only thing that matters.  The only good thing they think they have going for them is a wonderful place after death, and that may work for them, giving them hope and comfort, however they dedicate their lives to this religion, which dictates how they are supposed to live their lives.  It doesn't help the rest who are focused on our reality and aren't bound by religion. 
 
You have a point though, what is absurd to me might be truth to someone else, however, I'm as free to call your faith absurd as you're free to send someone like me to hell, whether or not you do so.
 
I've made a number of points on my original posts and I haven't seen you try to answer them.  They generally revolve around our moral values versus Yahweh's.
Edited by Faithful Kevin

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Where is our God?

Bleeding on the Cross for you in your sinful flesh.

I could offer other responses, but whatever I say on this topic must ultimately start and end there. There is no God other than or behind the back of the suffering Christ.

So where is He when we suffer? Suffering with us, for us, in order to rescue us.

But that's not very intellectually satisfying, I know, however emotionally powerful it can be. And indeed, the intellectual obstacles easily blunt the emotional impact.

So why the Fall? Why did God let sin enter human existence, and bring suffering upon us all? To some extent, I appeal to mystery, but I also hold a doctrine that I call supralapsarian creationism. This is just a fancy way of saying that God's decision to create the world, including all people, and to recreate it in Jesus, was entirely independent of and logically prior to His knowledge that humanity would end up in sin. God knows and has always known what man would do, but only because He freely chose to create man. God's foreknowledge is not a static property but God's active choice, a choice which is first based on His choice to be man's God and Creator. God decided to create us without regard for how we would respond, despite having that knowledge. It was, at the risk of sounding irreverent, an act of reckless love. If you wish to blame Him for that, He has already owned up to it and accepted punishment.

Also, Kevin, with regards to your problems about Hell and threatening, I would respond that Hell is not a place God freely creates to punish people for breaking rules He arbitrarily makes. Rather, it must be recognized that God simply is, by virtue of being God, the sole source and nature of life and happiness. This cannot be otherwise. If there were another source, than that source would be a competing God. In addition, because Jesus is not only true God but true Man, and is the image of God in whom mankind was created, there is also no other source of legitimate humanity but Jesus. Hell, then, is what happens when people close themselves off to God in Christ. By rejecting Jesus, who is Himself life and bliss and humanity, they wind up reduced permanently to a state of death, misery, and sub-human "existence." And once you have fully cut yourself off in this way, there is hardly a "you" left to change your mind.

This, I should add, leads into where I disagree with your assessment of the Atonement. Jesus did not simply die to fulfill the arbitrary legal consequence of breaking God's rules so we can get off free. Instead, His death continued the work of His entire life: redeeming fallen human flesh to God. He came in a human nature with the same weaknesses as our own so that in His own human life He could carve out a place of perfect harmony between God and man, and deal with the problem of the cancerous sin which ends in the fate described above. He came under the pressure of all the world's sin so that, in dying under judgment yet without doing anything wrong, and then returning from the dead, He could leave sinful human existence condemned in the grave, and create in His new, resurrected humanity a way forward to purge all of us of our corrupting sins. Now, by union with His resurrected and sanctified humanity through His Spirit whom He poured out on us, we can participate in His new life, be rescued from the destructive powers of sin in us, and eventually share in His resurrected life. Ultimately, Jesus' death was not so much about human sacrifice for an angry God so much as it is the story of a God who determined to defeat evil by Himself submitting to its worst.

I realize that this is probably not entirely satisfactory, and that I have not even addressed some of your concerns at all. But I hope this alternative paradigm can be of some use.

 
God is bleeding on the Cross for MY sinful flesh?  Mine personally?  So your god is still hung on a 
cross?  Where?  Where is he in this world?  Where is that cross?  
 
"So where is He when we suffer? Suffering with us, for us, in order to rescue us.
But that's not very intellectually satisfying, I know, however emotionally powerful it can be. And 
indeed, the intellectual obstacles easily blunt the emotional impact."
 
So if you admit this line of thinking is ludicrous, why do you sustain it?  
 
So on your first sentence explaining what you call "supralapsarian creationism" you've mentioned 
that God created everything without knowing that humanity would end up in sin, but at the very next
sentence you contradict your explanation by mentioning that "God knows and has always known whatman would do".  Does that make sense?  It allows one to doubt Yahweh's omniscience. 
 
When has God owned up to his "reckless love"?  Yes, Yahweh should be held responsible for what he sat back and watched happen to his "loved" creation. 
 
Regarding your response to hell and it's threat, are you suggesting God isn't responsible for sending people to hell?  
 
"Ultimately, Jesus' death was not so much about human sacrifice for an angry God so much as it is the story of a God who determined to defeat evil by Himself submitting to its worst."
 
I like the way you've explained this, however, I have my reservations.
How do you know Jesus submitted himself to evil's worst?  Did he burn in hell like the wicked are supposed to?  Even if he did, (which I doubt is the answer), he didn't suffer fairly.  He was only there for three days (according to the general belief since the gospels contradict each other), so, how is that supposed to be -enough- to pay for the sins of everyone who has ever and will ever
exist.  How is that the worst?  The worst is being burned for an eternity.
 
I've enjoyed reading your answers.  Thank you.
Edited by Faithful Kevin

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Why did God allowed Lucifer to deceive mankind? 

 

It's more of why God allowed us to cross examine Lucifer and see whose side we favor most. Do you believe someone should to be executed without trial? Criminals are allowed to talk are they? They may attempt to deceive the court but if we know the law and the truth, justice will prevail.

 

Being a Judge/Jury:

We are to be a judge/jury of "Angels" and our purpose is to learn the word of God to the fullest. ​You know God would have just vanquished Lucifer but he choose to cast him to the abyss to await the judgement day which means Lucifer will be put into trial. Same with us we will all be on trial on the judgement day as well but of course Jesus will come for our salvation as promised (2nd coming of Christ). Lucifer's nature was put on trial (Rebellious, Prideful, Self-exaltation, & Freedom from God) and we are to judge that nature. 

 

"To be a Judge of Angels" 1 Corinthians 6:2-3

Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

 

Lucifer is showing us that his nature manifest within us as well. He is showing that we as Judges is same as him and his nature is justified. He is saying that we are rebellious, prideful, ambitious, and independent from God. Now we have to choose is whether he is correct or not. Do you think God would control our decision in this trial just to favor him? if yes then what is the point of the trial for the judgment day, God should have just slain him without trial if that's the case. Sad thing is many people agree with Lucifer and it also favors him that we know nothing of his word so we can't do our purpose (How can a Judge/Jury decide if he/she knows nothing about the law). There are people who to stand with the Lord no matter what & to show Lucifer that he is wrong and are they heavily armed with the Word of God. 

 

God is God

No offense but to be extremely frank, it really doesn't matter what you believe or what your ideal God is supposed to be. You not believing or worshiping don't change the word of God and how you will be dealt with upon your death. I know you're angry for being born a sinner but paradise is not of this world anymore because of Adam & Eve but the next. You are not to be born on paradise, you are to be born here on Earth as a sinner. God set up the rules of this world and we should obey it, if not you you'll receive the 2nd Death (Death of the Soul) through the fires of hell and will be burn to ash unless we follow Jesus' path to true salvation. To tell you the truth, the goal isn't to save the whole of humanity but to separate (even among ts family) only those will side with God Mt10:34-36. We may be born to know that God is loving but don't ever forget that God is also very powerful and it's right to fear him as well.

 

"The Sword of the Gospel" Matthew 10:34 

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword".

 

"Punishment for sin is not torture"Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

"Burned to Ashes" Isaiah 33:12

The peoples will be burned to ashes; like cut thornbushes they will be set ablaze

 

"The 2nd Death" Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

"The Fall of Lucifer" Isaiah 14:12-17 

“How you are fallen from heaven,

O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,to the lowest depths of the Pit. “Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

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God created Satan, so God created sin by the transitive property of creating stuff.

 

Is that a meaningful deployment of the transitive property? Is creation transitive? That is, did the parents of Josef Stalin create the purges? I am doubtful that is a meaningful way to look at the issue.

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