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Faithful Kevin

The God that did nothing

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Is that a meaningful deployment of the transitive property? Is creation transitive? That is, did the parents of Josef Stalin create the purges? I am doubtful that is a meaningful way to look at the issue.

 

I feel like this is a spurious counter example, since Stalin's parents had no reason to think their child would become a bloodthirsty dictator, whereas God has perfect information about the consequences of His creation. Further, Stalin's parents really had limited "creative control," whereas God theoretically could have made creation however He wanted.

Edited by Chris-M

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I feel like this is a spurious counter example, since Stalin's parents had no reason to think their child would become a bloodthirsty dictator, whereas God has perfect information about the consequences of His creation. Further, Stalin's parents really had limited "creative control," whereas God theoretically could have made creation however He wanted.

 

It is not a spurious example, because my intent was on the "creation" aspect, not the God aspect. My point is that creation does not necessarily imply a transitive property of guilt. You have to bring in other, external notions such as "omniscience", which are not immediately internal to the concept of creation-in-itself, to make the case that my example is a spurious one. Without qualifying the idea of God here, there is no way to say it is a spurious example, considering there are many notions of God that would evade such a problem. I do not think Bryce holds to any of these notions, but the point still stands.

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Wow. I feel so bad for you guys.  I don't know how to explain to you what you're missing.  You cling to your logic, intelligence, ability to reason, and ability to debate as your god.  Your essentially worshiping yourself.  Please, test the Yaweh that you don't believe in.  He is the only thing that can change your life, give it meaning, and truly show "the way", "the truth", and "the light"

Nothing I say, no logical reasoning I present, and no argument I present to you can give you anything like what HE can.  So ask him. Truly ask him.

He waits for all who come.

 

(I know it might offend some of yall, but I'm praying for all of you)

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I'm waiting for most of the members here to make better arguments instead of abandoning the topic altogether.  I've also noticed many of my questions left unanswered.

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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Wow. I feel so bad for you guys.  I don't know how to explain to you what you're missing.  You cling to your logic, intelligence, ability to reason, and ability to debate as your god.  Your essentially worshiping yourself.  Please, test the Yaweh that you don't believe in.  He is the only thing that can change your life, give it meaning, and truly show "the way", "the truth", and "the light"

Nothing I say, no logical reasoning I present, and no argument I present to you can give you anything like what HE can.  So ask him. Truly ask him.

He waits for all who come.

 

(I know it might offend some of yall, but I'm praying for all of you)

 

Are you not Catholic? I am guessing by the signature quote in Latin from the Book of Joshua. Is not it a central notion in Roman Catholicism that faith and reason are two sides of the same coin? I ask this because I am Roman Catholic.

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I'm waiting for most of the members here to make better arguments instead of abandoning the topic altogether.  I've also noticed many of my questions left unanswered.

 

We have given you our insight to the best of our ability brother. I assume that you are "amused" how the Christians are chasing you all over, justifying one argument to another. We can't carry you to your destination Kevin, we here just to point you the way and you must walk the path you choose. We are here help but you have to find the answer on your own two feet. Jesus will carry you and your burden along this journey if you allow him but we see you're independent from God now.

 

I'm like you, I'm delving into the most controversial texts in the bible. Doubting & questioning everything but you know what, it's people like us who have to the "potential" to know the truth because we thirst for answers rather than blind faith with unquestioning acceptance. But the difference between us is that I search for the truth not to be an adversary but to hang on to this faith called Christianity.

 

I "assume" that you already arrived to a conclusion, you are done questioning for your own and now proceed to challenge the faith itself.Yet you haven't thoroughly investigated the word of God to the fullest and rely on the people's knowledge to prove you wrong. 

 

Let me ask you to avoid confusion so we might know who we are dealing with;

 

What do you hope to achieve in this thread? 

Are you searching for that special answer from that special person to restore you back to the Lord?

Or Are to challenge Christianity and to Shepard the Christian people out of their faith?

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The questions you're asking require PhD's and theologians books and dissertations to write. I'm somehow skeptical Christian Teen Forums will hold the secret answer you're looking for.

 

Critical thinking doesn't require what you've mentioned.   Even a teen can do it.

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We have given you our insight to the best of our ability brother. I assume that you are "amused" how the Christians are chasing you all over, justifying one argument to another. We can't carry you to your destination Kevin, we here just to point you the way and you must walk the path you choose. We are here help but you have to find the answer on your own two feet. Jesus will carry you and your burden along this journey if you allow him but we see you're independent from God now.

 

I'm like you, I'm delving into the most controversial texts in the bible. Doubting & questioning everything but you know what, it's people like us who have to the "potential" to know the truth because we thirst for answers rather than blind faith with unquestioning acceptance. But the difference between us is that I search for the truth not to be an adversary but to hang on to this faith called Christianity.

 

I "assume" that you already arrived to a conclusion, you are done questioning for your own and now proceed to challenge the faith itself.Yet you haven't thoroughly investigated the word of God to the fullest and rely on the people's knowledge to prove you wrong. 

 

Let me ask you to avoid confusion so we might know who we are dealing with;

 

What do you hope to achieve in this thread? 

Are you searching for that special answer from that special person to restore you back to the Lord?

Or Are to challenge Christianity and to Shepard the Christian people out of their faith?

 

I don't doubt people have tried their best at answering my questions, however, when I present them with an argument against their answers I do not get a response back.  There could be a number of reasons for this.  Either they forgot to write back, don't know how to answer, or simply abandoned the argument.  

 

There is nothing wrong with answering, "I don't know" to my questions.  I don't expect people to know everything, I do expect them to think for themselves.

 

There is a mix of feelings involved in the different answers I've received.  I've enjoyed reading a number of answers, while others seem to misunderstand my argument entirely, however, I appreciate the time people take to write nonetheless.   Many people have responded to my original argument, however, I'm left waiting for a response after submitting my follow-up to their answers, which gives me the feeling that they've abandoned their position to defend their faith.

 

Your first paragraph isn't an accurate description of what I'm doing here.  I've explained my intentions (I think in page 2) on this thread, which is to challenge people's faith.

 

Are you saying that I'm not searching for truth in your second paragraph?  If so, that's conceited of you.

 

Your third paragraph:  What does "investigated the word of God to the fullest" even mean?  You have to be specific.  How does one know they have accomplished such a task according to you?  By becoming a theologian or a scholar?  

 

There shouldn't be confusion.  

I've stated it before.  

 

I hope to allow people to question their faith through a few simple questions I'm asking that challenges it.  I've hoped to learn how Christians will attempt to justify Yahweh's moral values compared to their own, if they choose to.

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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I don't doubt people have tried their best at answering my questions, however, when I present them with an argument against their answers I do not get a response back.  There could be a number of reasons for this.  Either they forgot to write back, don't know how to answer, or simply abandoned the argument.  

 

There is nothing wrong with answering, "I don't know" to my questions.  I don't expect people to know everything, I do expect them to think for themselves.

 

There is a mix of feelings involved in the different answers I've received.  I've enjoyed reading a number of answers, while others seem to misunderstand my argument entirely, however, I appreciate the time people take to write nonetheless.   Many people have responded to my original argument, however, I'm left waiting for a response after submitting my follow-up to their answers, which gives me the feeling that they've abandoned their position to defend their faith.

 

Your first paragraph isn't an accurate description of what I'm doing here.  I've explained my intentions (I think in page 2) on this thread, which is to challenge people's faith.

 

Are you saying that I'm not searching for truth in your second paragraph?  If so, that's conceited of you.

 

Your third paragraph:  What does "investigated the word of God to the fullest" even mean?  You have to be specific.  How does one know they have accomplished such a task according to you?  By becoming a theologian or a scholar?  

 

There shouldn't be confusion.  

I've stated it before.  

 

I hope to allow people to question their faith through a few simple questions I'm asking that challenges it.  I've hoped to learn how Christians will attempt to justify Yahweh's moral values compared to their own, if they choose to.

 

I see now that you are indeed an adversary.

 

Do you believe people that answered you and left you hanging with questions... know the answer?

Do you believe that they are hiding the answers from you? If yes, by what reason should they be hiding it from you?

There is a "limit" to the knowledge of faith even for a Christian and those answer might be the best they got on their understanding in Christianity. One reason might one stray away from the path, such as yourself.

 

It's true what you said that we need not be Theologians nor scholars with Ph.D*. to at least answer

but did you even dig deep enough to see why God chose those decisions?

 

When I say investigate to the fullest (to avoid any further confusion)

"Did you learn enough to "accuse" God of doing nothing and this to be deemed the ultimate truth?"   

 

Were these doubts enough to throw it all away and shepherd his people away from him? 

Were you sure God was "torturing" human souls for their sins for all eternity? 

Did you read the bible to answer these questions?

 

Kevin if there's one thing I've learned about "Doubt" it's this;

Doubt is the fuel to seek the Truth, Not the fuel to condemn. 

If you seek to condemn, you seek someone's downfall rather than the truth.

Edited by Brioreos

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I see now that you are indeed an adversary.

 

Do you believe people that answered you and left you hanging with questions... know the answer?

Do you believe that they are hiding the answers from you? If yes, by what reason should they be hiding it from you?

There is a "limit" to the knowledge of faith even for a Christian and those answer might be the best they got on their understanding in Christianity. One reason might one stray away from the path, such as yourself.

 

It's true what you said that we need not be Theologians nor scholars with Ph.D*. to at least answer

but did you even dig deep enough to see why God chose those decisions?

 

When I say investigate to the fullest (to avoid any further confusion)

"Did you learn enough to "accuse" God of doing nothing and this to be deemed the ultimate truth?"   

 

Were these doubts enough to throw it all away and shepherd his people away from him? 

Were you sure God was "torturing" human souls for their sins for all eternity? 

Did you read the bible to answer these questions?

 

Kevin if there's one thing I've learned about "Doubt" it's this;

Doubt is the fuel to seek the Truth, Not the fuel to condemn. 

If you seek to condemn, you seek someone's downfall rather than the truth.

 

I see now that you are indeed an adversary.

Is that the kind of adversary described in biblical language or juts plain ol' adversary in an argument? 

 

Do you believe people that answered you and left you hanging with questions... know the answer?

I don't know.

 

Do you believe that they are hiding the answers from you? If yes, by what reason should they be hiding it from you?

I don't know.

 

There is a "limit" to the knowledge of faith even for a Christian and those answer might be the best they got on their understanding in Christianity. One reason might one stray away from the path, such as yourself.

 

It's not about knowledge of faith, it's about knowledge of Christianity, the religion.  Again, I don't expect people to know everything, however, it doesn't require a vast amount of knowledge to understand what the bible teaches in plain.  That being said, if a Christian understands their religion basically, they should be able to defend it.  To add, the arguments I make aren't complicated nor hard to understand, so the whole "limit" to knowledge isn't a good excuse to people abandoning the topic.

 

One reason might one stray away from the path, such as yourself.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here in correlation with the rest of the paragraph you wrote. 

 

 

It's true what you said that we need not be Theologians nor scholars with Ph.D*. to at least answer

but did you even dig deep enough to see why God chose those decisions?

 

I've already asked you in my last reply:  What do you mean by digging deep enough?  What does that mean to you?  What exactly is that?  What else is there to look for except what the bible says about it all? 

 

When I say investigate to the fullest (to avoid any further confusion)

"Did you learn enough to "accuse" God of doing nothing and this to be deemed the ultimate truth?"  

Of course I did.  I suggest you read through my original post and see how I've formulated my questions.  The questions are very easy to understand, and if you have basic knowledge of the story of the garden of Eden, you will understand my stance.  Also, your question is loaded.  You're using the tern "Ultimate truth" as though I were preaching a religion.  I'm simply pointing out the inconsistency of Genesis, God's moral character versus our own.

 

 

Were these doubts enough to throw it all away and shepherd his people away from him? 

Were you sure God was "torturing" human souls for their sins for all eternity? 

Did you read the bible to answer these questions?

These "doubts" (check my original argument) were enough to convince me that Yahweh had a strange course of action.  At the same time, he is revered as all-loving and all-knowing, yet, the all-loving father allowed his children to perish by the very evil he created.  Doesn't that sound horrible?  That's exactly what happened in Genesis.  You need to step back and critically evaluate the story to understand this. (And I've just spelled it out to you).

 

 

Kevin if there's one thing I've learned about "Doubt" it's this;

Doubt is the fuel to seek the Truth, Not the fuel to condemn. 

If you seek to condemn, you seek someone's downfall rather than the truth.

I don't necessarily agree with this entirely.  Yes, doubt fuels the seeking of truth, but just because I'm here arguing doesn't mean I am here to cause harm.   I'm simply giving my point of view on Christianity and questioning the stories in the religion per-se along with what we value from it. 

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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Considering you are showing a desire, I will write up a reply, warning it might be extensive. XD and very traditionally Catholic, because that is the faith I was drawn to.

 

One thing I will say, is personally, I do not see religion as burdensome. I find spirituality of sort to be important because if you believe there IS something, it creates a natural law and moral standard for you. Even if you are just "Agnostic", unsure what that higher being is, I feel it is better.

 

There will always be a "hole" in every faith, I think, and perhaps we are a bit string attached because for so long we have believed a faith which has such holes. I can tell you there was a time I was losing my faith too, not totally to these questions, but the mystery of why the man across the street could beat his dying father and be horrible yet happy as he was, and as a Christian I was miserable because of the trials I was facing, but I feel I found my answer through Him and through deeper studying of the faith.

 

Even if it is not CHRISTIAN, I would love to see you find a faith which answers your needs. I personally am drawn to hinduism outside of the Christian realm, so.

 

An extensive reply to your questions will come later. Until then, some food for thought from this.

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Kevin you're already the proof / the example of the "limit" of knowledge regarding Christianity, can't you see it? 

That is why you turn your back on the Lord (strayed away) because you can't find the answers as well as we do

and you are right, it's not an excuse. We need to learn more about it. 

 

I'm asking you Kevin what you have LEARNED not what you have doubted

Have you learned the answer in the bible or have you learned to construct a question which you yourself can't answer.

If you say to us you indeed "learned enough" (dug deeper) to say "God did nothing" then you have answered your doubts

 

You already know the truth

You already have the proof 

You already solved the mystery

 

Then tell me right now;

 

Why did God allow Satan to deceive us?

What is our purpose on Earth and on the next life?

Was God "torturing" human souls for their sins for all eternity?

 

Show me that you have "learned enough" to answer, Give me verses as well.

Don't tell me you've have learn enough just to doubt 

because that's not enough to accuse the Lord. 

 

You had made it clear to us of what your "intentions" were, I had to make sure earlier.

You tempt people to sin as you've posted on threads other than this and you say you're not causing harm to the Christian people. 

You came here not searching for answers but of a different intention.

You became an adversary to the faith, the enemywhich you shouldn't been. 

 

What I'm trying to say to you is please don't give up on searching for the truth

Keep the faith while searching because if you seek to condemn from the start,

won't find the answers. If you gave up then that's it... all you will ever have is doubt.

 

I did a my fair share of research on your original post and gave an answer earlier but that's all I can give.

I won't repeat my post nor my point as well here. It might not be enough for you but it thirst me to learn more because

there is always more to be learn in the Bible. I wish to hopefully end my posts here, I'll won't be have much free time.

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Kevin you're already the proof / the example of the "limit" of knowledge regarding Christianity, can't you see it? 

That is why you turn your back on the Lord (strayed away) because you can't find the answers as well as we do

and you are right, it's not an excuse. We need to learn more about it. 

 

I'm asking you Kevin what you have LEARNED not what you have doubted

Have you learned the answer in the bible or have you learned to construct a question which you yourself can't answer.

If you say to us you indeed "learned enough" (dug deeper) to say "God did nothing" then you have answered your doubts

 

You already know the truth

You already have the proof 

You already solved the mystery

 

Then tell me right now;

 

Why did God allow Satan to deceive us?

What is our purpose on Earth and on the next life?

Was God "torturing" human souls for their sins for all eternity?

 

Show me that you have "learned enough" to answer, Give me verses as well.

Don't tell me you've have learn enough just to doubt 

because that's not enough to accuse the Lord. 

 

You had made it clear to us of what your "intentions" were, I had to make sure earlier.

You tempt people to sin as you've posted on threads other than this and you say you're not causing harm to the Christian people. 

You came here not searching for answers but of a different intention.

You became an adversary to the faith, the enemywhich you shouldn't been. 

 

What I'm trying to say to you is please don't give up on searching for the truth

Keep the faith while searching because if you seek to condemn from the start,

won't find the answers. If you gave up then that's it... all you will ever have is doubt.

 

I did a my fair share of research on your original post and gave an answer earlier but that's all I can give.

I won't repeat my post nor my point as well here. It might not be enough for you but it thirst me to learn more because

there is always more to be learn in the Bible. I wish to hopefully end my posts here, I'll won't be have much free time.

 

Firstly, excuse my typing mistakes/spelling errors.  It's a long post, it's late and I don't feel like checking right now.

 

Oh, so the limit you were writing about all along was MY limit of not knowing enough of Christianity.  I see now. You know, I didn't say this in my other posts because I would have been assuming, but now you've confirmed the suspicion I had that you don't see me as a normal person asking questions and presenting arguments, you see me as an enemy.  And not only that, but since you see me as an adversary, that opens the line of thinking that I may be possessed according to your bible, that I am a child of Satan, which the bible also mentions, and that you are not to have anything to do with me because I am an apostate.  And since you believe the bible and stand by it's teachings REGARDLESS of understanding it or not (which is ridiculous and is essentially the attitude you've advised me to mimic), you will believe everything it says about people like me.  Well, as unfortunate as that may sound to you, I'm indifferent about it.  

 

Now, back to the "limit" point you've made.

First you've mentioned that even Christians have limits in their understanding of the religion they follow (before you turned around and revealed you were actually writing about me), which I agree with.  I sure don't know everything about the religion, and when I mention everything, I mean the historicity of the Christian bible, how to tell which translations are deemed incorrect or far from the original texts, how to use exegesis, homiletic and other tools to better understand biblical context in the time it was written, what influenced its writing, etc.  I don't know everything and that is OK.  It's just as OK as a Christian who doesn't know everything about their own religion.  It's just as fine as a person who doesn't know how to answer my questions because they simply don't understand their religion enough or they simply cannot find an answer.  

 

So I do have limits, I don't know everything about the religion, however, there are scholars who do, and who have found out the New Testament is not to be taken as truth, but I'm not going to go into that.  I've been giving Christianity the benefit of the doubt of being the true religion for the sake of my arguments.  I've assumed that the garden of Eden happened so that I would debate over it along with Yahweh and the rest of this creations according to the bible.  

 

At the end, there is no rational way to defend Yahweh's actions in my argument.  There has been no healthy answer to "Why did God create evil if he so loved his creation and does not like them to perish?".  None.  

 

My arguments are not things I am unsure about, they are things that are clear to me.  So, it's not a lack of knowing Christianity that put me away, it was the nonsense or the lack of sense that I've come across, being how twisted God's morals are, how he orders everyone to follow rules that he himself does not follow, not to mention his heavy absence in this world and how backwards it is to claim how great Yahweh is when the bible mentions how he created evil, obliterated entire races, killed millions, condoned slavery, condoned forced marriage, and the list goes on.

 

What have I learned? 

 

I've learned that Yahweh created evil, he didn't protect Adam and Eve from the evil he created and thus cursed them with death.  God killed millions with the pretext of getting rid of evil in the world, which never worked by the way, condoned slavery, committed genocide, infanticide, forced marriage, condoned brutal laws for his own people and condoned laws that were absolutely unfair to women.  I think that summarizes it.  That is what I've accepted to acknowledge of the  Christian religion.  I used to pay no mind to it when I was a Christian myself, which was a mistake, but now I'm okay, because I don't defend a god this twisted and praise him at the same time like I used to.  Granted, many Christians if not the majority ignore this ugly side of their religion.  I can't blame them though.  If they want to stay where they are, they have to ignore these things or find ways to justify them, because after all, the number one excuse that even I used to defend Yahweh was, God is God and he does what he pleases, which is insane.  

 

Have you learned the answer in the bible or have you learned to construct a question which you yourself can't answer.

The bible doesn't answer my question of "Why did God create evil".  There is not explicit Q&A.  It never addresses Yahweh's intentions. So no, I don't know why Yahweh created evil, and neither do the rest of the people here.  My argument is, why would he do something like that?  And why worship a god that would do something like that where now you have to serve him or be tortured forever?  It hits the very core of Christianity and there is no answer for it in the bible, which again, begs the question, why worship him?

 

If you say to us you indeed "learned enough" (dug deeper) to say "God did nothing" then you have answered your doubts

Yes,  God did nothing.  Read Genesis.  He let Adam and Eve be deceived.  

 

You already know the truth

You already have the proof 

You already solved the mystery

 

The truth, according to you and your bible, is in the bible.  The bible shows how Yahweh stood by and did nothing while Adam and Even were deceived.  That's your bible.  Read Genesis.

 

Proof is a term used in Science.  We are discussing your religion.  Proof doesn't belong here.  I've been giving your religion the benefit of the doubt of being true (when it isn't)  the entire time.

 

I didn't solve this mystery.  Maybe if Yahweh left heaven for a bit and showed everyone the truth, maybe we wouldn't have this conversation.  He should just come down and teach everyone about himself so that we may worship him.  That would leave no room for doubt and would ensure that the maximum amount of people get saved.  Unfortunately, Yahweh is too darn mysterious to do that.  And he can do that in a snap, mind you.  He's all powerful.  Nope.  Doesn't want to.  Do you see how he claims to love us but doesn't do a thing to help us understand him?  All we have are very old texts that are know to have been corrupted through translations and deliberate changes in texts throughout history, and somehow the only way we have to understand God is through that old, corrupted text.  God couldn't come up with a better way to help us understand him?  No.  He remains mysterious.

 

Why did God allow Satan to deceive us?

What is our purpose on Earth and on the next life?

Was God "torturing" human souls for their sins for all eternity?

 

The first question is my very own, therefore, my answer is: I don't know and it doesn't make sense how God would allow that to happen if he says he doesn't want us to perish.  Ridiculous.

 

Your second question is based on Christian belief.  I can't help but feel you have to test my understanding of Christianity to take me seriously when in fact my questions are based on the bible.  According to the bible, a Christian's main purpose is to love God and spread His word so that many are saved [from hell].  That's the gist.

 

Your third question is using my own words against me in a form of a question.  According to the bible, those who die unrepented of their sins are cast into a lake of fire forever at the day of judgement.  Satan will only be there 1,000 years.  God is the judge, he decides who does to hell.  There is torture in hell, therefore, God sends people to hell to be tortured.  Please don't give me the argument that God doesn't physically torture them because as true as it may be according to the bible it's still a ridiculous argument.  God send people to hell and sends people to heaven.  Simple.  He created both places.

That's it.  I don't feel like searching for verses right now.  I'm certain my answers are accurate to what the bible teaches.  

 

 

What I'm trying to say to you is please don't give up on searching for the truth

Anyway, to start wrapping this long post up, I'm not a Christian, doesn't mean I am not seeking for truth.  Truth isn't what a religion says it is, truth is whatever conforms to verified or undisputed facts or reality.  The truth you're likely writing about is the gospel, which doesn't conform to our reality.

 

Keep the faith while searching because if you seek to condemn from the start,

won't find the answers. If you gave up then that's it... all you will ever have is doubt.

The faith is no longer there after I accepted the absurdity of Yahweh/Christianity.

I'd rather have my reservations/arguments while being atheist instead of having the same reservations and falsely worshiping a god I don't fully understand or believe in.

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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OK Kevin If you say so, we can't force you once you really decided to break free. Best of luck and hope this path would show you what your looking for. Apologies if I was too passionate but I have to try to figure out what's going on in your mind. I see that your head strong, proud and independent. Not bound to Destiny, Fate nor God, Everything you do is because of you. Your struggle is yours alone, and solved by yourself. Victory is credited to you, no one else and Defeat is your fault alone, no one else.

 

Any ways I want to wrap this up as well. Thanks for debate Kevin.

 

Some verses you might want to check out,

Not for the purpose of faith nor debate but for notes just in case you might need it in discussions.

There is always room for improvement

 

Eternal punishment is not eternal torture Romans 6:23 
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

 

-God allowed us to judge the Angels-

Edited by Brioreos

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I'm not exactly sure how to answer the problem of evil that you bring up. I think that perhaps evil may be necessary because:

A. It allows humans to make Moral/Immoral decisions  

B. It allows for greater moral development 

Evil may also exist because humans may have free will. I would like to think that to some extent we do have free will, and that this also allows us to make good and bad decisions

 

Part two, I think Wesker did quite well at answering your question about Original sin. It's a hard/interesting topic. I have to agree, it makes a significant difference if you read Genesis as a literal story of creation. 

 

For the last part, I am unsure about how to answer that. I think it's a very good question though. 

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I'm not exactly sure how to answer the problem of evil that you bring up. I think that perhaps evil may be necessary because:

A. It allows humans to make Moral/Immoral decisions  

B. It allows for greater moral development 

Evil may also exist because humans may have free will. I would like to think that to some extent we do have free will, and that this also allows us to make good and bad decisions

 

Part two, I think Wesker did quite well at answering your question about Original sin. It's a hard/interesting topic. I have to agree, it makes a significant difference if you read Genesis as a literal story of creation. 

 

For the last part, I am unsure about how to answer that. I think it's a very good question though. 

 

Sure, there isn't a solid answer to my question of why Yahweh created evil, however, it begs the question, why do you choose to worship this god who created all evil?

 

I could argue evil exists for a number of reasons, however, like you, I wouldn't define it as a creation of any god.  

 

Wesker told me I wasn't seeing or understanding Genesis properly.  He never responded after I asked him to show me what I was missing from the book of Genesis.  Regardless if whether Genesis is a literal story or not, it is still clear that Yahweh allowed the evil he created to corrupt Adam and Eve.  

 

Then I ask... why worship this god?

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I'm not trying to put my words in your mouth, but the impression I am receiving from you is that the standard for critical thinking to an adequate level to your liking is that the members of this board engage in practical doubt of their faith and concede it is non-falsifiable.

 

I know you haven't said to the contrary, but there are many great critically thinking Christians and non-Christians, such as Alvin Plantinga and sort of William Lane Craig (who is brilliant but often misguided, in my opinion). 

 

It is good to request that others engage in these big conversations, but there is a very real part of this that some people cannot handle embracing bigger questions. Their hegemony will not allow it. Ultimately everything comes down to a point of unfounded presumptuous knowledge, including everything you believe. There certainly are answers to your questions, and you may or may not be satisfied with them, and I'll be glad to provide you with them if need be. But I think what you're looking for is not findable because it's unfound. 

 

Just be mindful you were once like everyone else on here, myself included. Indoctrination is a dangerous tool to fall victim to.

 

I'm not attempting to make members admit they can't prove a negative (if that's what you meant on your first sentence), what I've aimed is for believers to question their beliefs, evaluate their own god and compare Yahweh's moral values against their own.   What I've mentioned is a general or simple comprehension of what happened to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden as my starting point.

 

What do you mean by "everything" on your third paragraph?

 

There are answers?  If you have them please tell me more.

If you were referring to my question about the creation of evil as "not findable", then I agree with you.

 

You've probably noticed, my questions were mostly rhetorical.  The creation of evil was one of them.  

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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What if God wasn't all knowing or all powerful? What if God was simply all loving and God created us out of a sense of love and desire for community? What if, then, because God made us to love Him, "evil" is the consequence of our rejecting God in favor of something else, but that this course of action is beyond God's power or previous knowledge?

 

I don't really believe in that, but I would if I had to and it wouldn't be very hard. The God I believe in is very impersonal, but if I had to believe in a  personal God, they surely wouldn't be all knowing or all powerful because the world exists in too despairing of a condition.

But hopefully it's at least sort of food for thought.

 

Interesting indeed, and it gives a more... human quality to this God.  Something to relate.  God made a mistake.  But as I read those questions another one arose.  He couldn't be all-loving either because he sends people to hell forever.  Then I also remember this isn't the god Christians worship.  

 

Maybe the fact that all of these gods that people have adored throughout history means there truly is something out there that doesn't want to show itself.   But I could also argue that gods were the creation of men in order to explain the unexplained/mysterious things they'd see around them.  Not to mention the lack of evidence of any existence of any god.  I'm leaning toward the more skeptical approach.

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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Wow. I feel so bad for you guys.  I don't know how to explain to you what you're missing.  You cling to your logic, intelligence, ability to reason, and ability to debate as your god.  Your essentially worshiping yourself.  Please, test the Yaweh that you don't believe in.  He is the only thing that can change your life, give it meaning, and truly show "the way", "the truth", and "the light"

Nothing I say, no logical reasoning I present, and no argument I present to you can give you anything like what HE can.  So ask him. Truly ask him.

He waits for all who come.

 

(I know it might offend some of yall, but I'm praying for all of you)

 

 

 
Don't feel bad.
What are we missing exactly?  Happy feel-good messages or harsh in-your-face sermons?  Quiet mellow Jesus songs or upbeat sounds-like-that-artist-I-heard-the-other-day-on-the-worldly-radio-station songs?  Being told how you're supposed to live your life or being told you have free will but will burn if you exercise that free will?  Giving offerings on Sundays or being told you are sinning if you don't tithe?
 
Yes, I've projected a lot of my experiences on there.
In all seriousness, I do miss a few things like the feeling of having aa large group of people to care and show support for me.  The periodic activities or get-together-dinners we would enjoy.  The friendships and the opportunity to develop public speaking skills and charity work.  I wouldn't do it all again with the knowledge I have now.  Heck, I wish I had known then what I know now.  Maybe I wouldn't have wasted so much time in something useless and unproductive (excluding charity and honing of skills).
 
Samuel, you have your own logic, your own intelligence and your own ability to reason, as well as the ability to debate.  It almost sounds like you're antagonizing those things.   I don't consider any of those as my god and to be clear, I don't have a god.  No, I don't worship myself, however, if by worship you mean satisfy, then yes, I worship myself.
 
I was a Christian for over 4 years.  In that time I devoted my life to serving Jesus.  Then I took a break.  I was over-stressed and church was only adding to that stress.  While on this heavenly break of sleeping in on Sundays and staying indoors spending time on things that I enjoyed instead of going to church at 7:00PM I decided to give atheism a chance.  I started listening to their arguments and boy did they make a lot of sense!  I'm happy I'm no longer burdened by church nor filled with unnecessary guilt of sinning or the anxiety of temptation to sin.  Who needs that?  Not me.
 
Yahweh never gave meaning to my life.  I give meaning to my life.  My family gives me meaning to my life.  I have my aspirations and I will work tirelessly to attain them and be content with my efforts and enjoy the fruits of my labor with my own family.  This is what gives meaning and purpose to my life, the fiery passion to construct a better situation for my next generation, to work so that my sons and daughters have more opportunities to excel in life compared to my own, to fulfill most if not all of the needs in my family and to have enough to give to others who need.  
 
This is what fuels my repetitive days of work in order to obtain a career for a better future.  This is what motivates me to do my best.  I don't need a god to tell me what to do.  It was my mother who worked hard to raise me with the exact mentality I've described and I'm thankful for a supportive family.  No thanks to a god, but thanks to my hard working family.  
 
 
The only thing the idea of a god might have given me is comfort and the approval of religious people or people who somewhat believed in Yahweh.
 
No offense taken.
Edited by Faithful Kevin

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Sorry for the delay. I've been mostly avoiding social media as of late.

 

God is bleeding on the Cross for MY sinful flesh?  Mine personally?  So your god is still hung on a 

cross?  Where?  Where is he in this world?  Where is that cross?

While time has passed for us, God is eternally united with Christ on the Cross. God will never get past that moment in an important way, because He is beyond the time which "gets past."

 

So if you admit this line of thinking is ludicrous, why do you sustain it?

By "not intellectually satisfying," I meant that this point doesn't answer very many actual questions, not that it is ludicrous.

 

So on your first sentence explaining what you call "supralapsarian creationism" you've mentioned 

that God created everything without knowing that humanity would end up in sin, but at the very next

sentence you contradict your explanation by mentioning that "God knows and has always known whatman would do".  Does that make sense?  It allows one to doubt Yahweh's omniscience.

I don't think you've grasped the distinction in my argument between logical order and chronological order. Chronologically, God has always known everything, period. Yet the interior logical ordering of God's knowledge puts His free decision to create before His knowledge of human sin.

 

When has God owned up to his "reckless love"?  Yes, Yahweh should be held responsible for what he sat back and watched happen to his "loved" creation.

See: Golgotha, AD 30-ish.

 

Regarding your response to hell and it's threat, are you suggesting God isn't responsible for sending people to hell?

In an important sense, yes.

 

I like the way you've explained this, however, I have my reservations.

How do you know Jesus submitted himself to evil's worst?  Did he burn in hell like the wicked are supposed to?  Even if he did, (which I doubt is the answer), he didn't suffer fairly.  He was only there for three days (according to the general belief since the gospels contradict each other), so, how is that supposed to be -enough- to pay for the sins of everyone who has ever and will ever

exist.  How is that the worst?  The worst is being burned for an eternity.

That's not quite what I've meant by evil's worst. First off, I'm not sure you've quite grasped my concept of Hell. I do not conceive of Hell as a "place" that people "go" to physically suffer. Hell is the existence reduced to misery that results from cutting one's self off from the God in Christ who is life and joy and everything good. It involves cutting out the ground beneath your own felicity.

In this sense, there was no way that Jesus could experience that kind of suffering, being Himself the Life. And this suffering is not itself part of the hosts and forces of evil to which I was referring, but rather their final result. What Jesus subjected Himself to was not "Hell" per se but the full brunt of human sin, suffering, the fury of Satan and his hordes, and at last Death itself, all of which He overcame. He essentially allowed that He be taken captive deep behind enemy lines that He might return from there and leave the enemy defeated from within.

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Sorry for the delay. I've been mostly avoiding social media as of late.

 

While time has passed for us, God is eternally united with Christ on the Cross. God will never get past that moment in an important way, because He is beyond the time which "gets past."

 

By "not intellectually satisfying," I meant that this point doesn't answer very many actual questions, not that it is ludicrous.

 

I don't think you've grasped the distinction in my argument between logical order and chronological order. Chronologically, God has always known everything, period. Yet the interior logical ordering of God's knowledge puts His free decision to create before His knowledge of human sin.

 

See: Golgotha, AD 30-ish.

 

In an important sense, yes.

 

That's not quite what I've meant by evil's worst. First off, I'm not sure you've quite grasped my concept of Hell. I do not conceive of Hell as a "place" that people "go" to physically suffer. Hell is the existence reduced to misery that results from cutting one's self off from the God in Christ who is life and joy and everything good. It involves cutting out the ground beneath your own felicity.

In this sense, there was no way that Jesus could experience that kind of suffering, being Himself the Life. And this suffering is not itself part of the hosts and forces of evil to which I was referring, but rather their final result. What Jesus subjected Himself to was not "Hell" per se but the full brunt of human sin, suffering, the fury of Satan and his hordes, and at last Death itself, all of which He overcame. He essentially allowed that He be taken captive deep behind enemy lines that He might return from there and leave the enemy defeated from within.

 

Thanks for explaining your points.  I appreciate it.

 

Your argument about god's knowledge still raises questions for me.  So, if I understand you correctly, what you believe is Yahweh simply created everything in the beginning and at that time of creating things he didn't yet know what would happen in the future.  Then, somehow, at some unspecified time, He gained knowledge of everything and realized his creation was tarnished.  Is this your point?

 

You've agreed that you believe that God isn't responsible for sending people to hell.

The following scripture does not agree with you:

 

Luke 12:5King James Version (KJV)

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

I've never heard of a description of hell the way you've described it to me.  So, what would happen to me if I died without Christ?   Please be specific.  

Edited by Faithful Kevin

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Your argument about god's knowledge still raises questions for me. So, if I understand you correctly, what you believe is Yahweh simply created everything in the beginning and at that time of creating things he didn't yet know what would happen in the future. Then, somehow, at some unspecified time, He gained knowledge of everything and realized his creation was tarnished. Is this your point?

I believe you're still missing the concept of timelessness I'm employing. I hold that God is altogether beyond and above time. There is no before or after, or progression of moments, from His essential vantage point. Everything for Him involves a kind of eternal simultaneity. You cannot meaningfully ask when God began to know something because there is no "when" for Him in Himself. He always knows all things apart from past, present, and future.

Despite this, God's knowledge necessarily has an order. For example, God knows that I am writing this, yet that knowledge is contingent on His knowledge of whom I am, which is in turn continent on His decision to create me. Even though no time elapses between these stages, since God exists and knows beyond time, the order of them is still meaningful. "Caleb is writing" would mean nothing apart from God's will to create me.

You've agreed that you believe that God isn't responsible for sending people to hell.

The following scripture do not agree with you:

Luke 12:5King James Version (KJV)

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

I suppose it depends on both what you mean by "responsible" and what set of analogies you want to use. Core to my theology is the belief that, apart from what we can say directly about Jesus of Nazareth, everything must be analogical. I was speaking in ontological terms, but this text clearly uses something more like a judicial analogy.

So, assuming that this verse is about the eternal, post-mortem Hell rather than God's impending judgment of Israel and Jerusalem through Rome (which is possible), we must consider the analogy for a moment. God is basically pictured here as someone with authority to send someone to be punished for crime. In this case, while you can call the judge (or executioner?) "responsible" for what happens to the criminal, common sense shows this to be rather secondary to the responsibility of the criminal for his crime. And this is sensible. So long as the criminal is truly guilty and the crime truly heinous, the criminal is to be considered responsible for his own suffering.

The ontological framing I used before can also accommodate this active language. It might legitimately be said that God sends suffering upon those who reject Him, but I would emphasize that this is only to be understood in terms of withdrawing from them His personal life and beatitude in response to their rejection of Him as a person.

I've never heard of a description of hell the way you've described it to me. So, what would happen to me if I died without Christ? Please be specific.

Basically, I believe whatever immaterial part of you remains after the death of your body would be reduced to miserable, sub-human rubble, as apart from the workings of the Spirit in the creation, both old and new, you would have no source left for life and joy and humanity. Rather, separated from God in Christ you'd have a sub-existence of non-life, non-joy, and non-humanity

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