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cgaviria

The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

The Law of Moses, which is the first five books of the Bible, otherwise called the Torah, or the law, has not been abolished,

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

For even when Paul identifies who will not inherit the kingdom of God,

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 [NASB])

He is referring to these specific commands of the law,

...if she begins to fornicate...she shall be burnt with fire. (Leviticus 21:9 [JB2000])

"You shall have no other gods before Me. "You shall not make for yourself an idol...
(Exodus 20:3-4 [NASB])

You shall not commit adultery. (Exodus 20:14 [ESV])

A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak...
(Deuteronomy 22:5 [ESV])

If a man lies with a male as with a woman...they shall surely be put to death... (Leviticus 20:13 [ESV])

You shall not steal. (Exodus 20:15 [ESV])

"You shall not covet...anything that belongs to your neighbor." (Exodus 20:17 [NASB])

'You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people... (Leviticus 19:16 [NASB])

"'Do not defraud or rob your neighbor... (Leviticus 19:13 [NIV])

And even drunkenness is revealed to be sin in the law, in which case Lot, whose mind became darkened and unaware because of drinking wine in excess, then also had sexual relations with his daughters as a result of his drunkenness,

So that night they made their father drunk with wine, and the older daughter came and had sexual relations with her father. But he was not aware that she had sexual relations with him and then got up. (Genesis 19:33 [NETBIBLE])

If a man lies with his father’s wife, he has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death... (Leviticus 20:11 [ESV])

And even when Paul commands wives to wear head coverings,

but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. (1 Corinthians 11:5 [ESV])

Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? (1 Corinthians 11:13 [ESV])

He was referencing this passage in the law,

Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel and asked the servant, "Who is that man in the field coming to meet us?" "He is my master," the servant answered. So she took her veil and covered herself. (Genesis 24:64-65 [NIV])

In which case, a head covering is a sign of submission of a wife to her husband, for the law also subjected wives to their husbands,

To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." (Genesis 3:16 [NIV])

Hence why Paul also tells wives to submit to their husbands in reference to the law,

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 [ESV])

let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says. (1 Corinthians 14:34 [WEB])

And so, in another passage, Paul also referenced the law concerning speaking evil against authorities,

Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.'" (Acts 23:5 [NIV])

"Do not blaspheme God or curse the ruler of your people. (Exodus 22:28 [NIV])

And Jesus Christ also referenced the law concerning each sin Satan tested him with,

But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (Matthew 4:4 [ESV])

And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD. (Deuteronomy 8:3 [ESV])

Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” (Matthew 4:7 [ESV])

You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah. (Deuteronomy 6:16 [ESV])

Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" (Matthew 4:10 [NIV])

You shall fear the LORD your God. You shall serve him and hold fast to him... (Deuteronomy 10:20 [ESV])

And so, this is why whoever discards the least of these commands of the law, will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens,

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:19 [NIV])

Because this very law, that has not been abolished, and reveals everything that is sin,

What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” (Romans 7:7 [ESV])

...since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20 [ESV])

And is said to be perfect,

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. (Psalm 19:7 [NIV])

And came from heaven,

"You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. (Nehemiah 9:13 [NIV])

Will be the law that all will be judged by, since all the dead who are resurrected at the great white throne judgment, will all be judged by works in accordance to this law,

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and each of them were judged according to their works. (Revelation 20:13 [BLB])

Which is why not one letter, nor one stroke of a pen, will disappear from the law until heaven and earth disappear,

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:18 [NIV])

Because this is the law of this heaven and earth, before the new heaven and earth comes into existence, in which case not only will this law disappear, but also the old heaven, the old earth, and the old covenant,

By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. (Hebrews 8:13 [NIV])

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. (Revelation 20:11 [NIV])

Yet the old covenant, whose sign was the circumcision of the flesh,

Here is my covenant that you are to observe, between me and you and your descendants: Every male among you is to be circumcised. (Genesis 17:10 [ISV])

And came with the blood of animals,

Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, (Hebrews 9:18 [ESV])

Foreshadowed a new and greater covenant, whose sign is the circumcision of the heart,

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. (Jeremiah 31:31 [NIV])

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.(Ezekiel 36:26-27 [ESV])

Circumcise yourselves to the LORD; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it, because of the evil of your deeds.” (Jeremiah 4:4 [ESV])

Which is a circumcision made without hands by being born again into the baptism of the holy spirit,

No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God. (Romans 2:29 [NIV])

And came with the blood of Jesus Christ,

for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28 [ESV])

Which is why it is not by works of the law that anyone is saved,

know that a person is not justified by the works of the law...(Galatians 2:16 [NIV])

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law... (Romans 3:20 [NIV])

Because all have sinned,

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23 [NIV])

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8 [KJV])

And have thus become cursed by the law,

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." (Galatians 3:10 [NIV])

But it is by receiving the holy spirit, which comes through belief in Jesus Christ, that any are saved,

But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers beloved by the Lord, that God has chosen you from the beginning unto salvation in the sanctification of the Spirit, and by faith of the truth; (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [BLB])

In which case, whoever receives the holy spirit, is then no longer under law, but under spirit,

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. (Galatians 5:18 [BSB])

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (Romans 8:9 [ESV])

For just as the holy spirit caused Saul to become another man and to prophesy,

Then the Spirit of the LORD will rush upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. (1 Samuel 10:6 [ESV])

And also caused others to prophesy upon receiving the holy spirit,

And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. (Acts 19:6 [ESV])

And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
(Numbers 11:25 [KJV])

So does the new holy spirit of the new covenant, that was first given to the apostles, causes a man to not only prophesy as the spirit given to prophets of old did, but also to obey the law,

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:26 [ESV])

Because the heart of stone, which the holy spirit removes, is the heart with evil desires that are also the cause of sin, which is why whoever walks by holy spirit no longer walks by flesh,

[1] In nothing then is there now condemnation to the ones in Christ Jesus, not walking according to flesh, but according to spirit. [2] For the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of the sin and of death. (Romans 8:1-2 [ABP])

Because this flesh nature, which is also the heart of stone, is the foreskin of the heart that the circumcision made by the spirit removes, which then frees from sin,

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Romans 6:18)

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. (John 8:34-36 [NIV])

And so, as opposed to doing works of the law, which no one can or has obeyed on their own, full obedience to the law is found in mere belief in Jesus Christ and rebirth in holy spirit, hence why whoever becomes born of God by receiving the holy spirit can no longer sin,

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:9-10 [KJV])

Because whoever becomes sanctified by receiving the holy spirit, which comes through belief in Jesus Christ, becomes perfected,

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14 [ESV])

And upholds the law by the obedience that the spirit causes,

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 [NIV])

in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:4 [NIV])

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Well, as soon as you're reading to start offering animals sacrifices, I'll listen. The Torah cannot, according to Scripture, be divided into chunks, so if we keep part of it we must keep the whole.

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45 minutes ago, Nicene Nerd said:

Well, as soon as you're reading to start offering animals sacrifices, I'll listen. The Torah cannot, according to Scripture, be divided into chunks, so if we keep part of it we must keep the whole.

The Torah is also a shadow, so whilest there are laws that must be obeyed literally, such as "do not murder", there are also laws that are obeyed by fulfilling the realities they foreshadowed, such as the laws of the festivals, Sabbaths, foods, and even also sacrifices. These laws are identified as "shadows" by Paul,

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. (Hebrews 10:1 [NIV])

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17 [NIV])

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The problem is that the Torah is a whole. Its existence as a whole was as shadow. It stands or moves together. The Torah has either been entirely fulfilled or remains entirely in force.

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18 hours ago, Nicene Nerd said:

The problem is that the Torah is a whole. Its existence as a whole was as shadow. It stands or moves together. The Torah has either been entirely fulfilled or remains entirely in force.

Tell me, are these commands in the Torah still in force or not?

"You shall not murder. (Exodus 20:13 [NIV])

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22 [ESV])

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21 hours ago, cgaviria said:

Tell me, are these commands in the Torah still in force or not?

"You shall not murder. (Exodus 20:13 [NIV])

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22 [ESV])

 

It is still morally wrong to murder and to engage in homosexual activity, but this is not because of the Torah. The laws were put into the Torah for practical and moral reasons which are still valid even though the Torah itself is not in effect.

We are not under the Torah at all, but we are still under the divine ethics which were expressed by certain parts of the Torah. We are still bound by the law of love, but the Law code written in commandments is void.

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5 hours ago, Nicene Nerd said:

It is still morally wrong to murder and to engage in homosexual activity, but this is not because of the Torah. The laws were put into the Torah for practical and moral reasons which are still valid even though the Torah itself is not in effect.

We are not under the Torah at all, but we are still under the divine ethics which were expressed by certain parts of the Torah. We are still bound by the law of love, but the Law code written in commandments is void.

No, these laws are still valid because the Torah is still valid, hence,

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:18 [NIV])

Even the law of love is a commandment from the Torah,

Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. (Deuteronomy 6:5 [NIV])

Do you not understand?
 

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15 hours ago, cgaviria said:

No, these laws are still valid because the Torah is still valid, hence,

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17 [NIV])

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:18 [NIV])

Even the law of love is a commandment from the Torah,

Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. (Deuteronomy 6:5 [NIV])

Do you not understand?
 

 

Have you not read Romans and Galatians? The Torah is completed by Christ. Everything is accomplished. The Torah's purpose and goal have been fully realized in Him. Jesus did not abolish the Torah, but He accomplished it. There is nothing left for it to do. It was a temporary measure given to train the people of God in Israel like a guardian/tutor until they grew up in Christ. To deny this is to deny Paul's entire doctrine of justification, especially as expressed in Galatians. We are not under the Torah, but under grace. Period.

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1 hour ago, Nicene Nerd said:

Have you not read Romans and Galatians? The Torah is completed by Christ. Everything is accomplished. The Torah's purpose and goal have been fully realized in Him. Jesus did not abolish the Torah, but He accomplished it. There is nothing left for it to do. It was a temporary measure given to train the people of God in Israel like a guardian/tutor until they grew up in Christ. To deny this is to deny Paul's entire doctrine of justification, especially as expressed in Galatians. We are not under the Torah, but under grace. Period.

This isn't so, because belief through grace does not nullify the law, it upholds it, hence,

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 [NIV])

Because it was not by our own works of law that we are saved, but rather, by mere belief through grace that we then receive the holy spirit, and are then caused to walk perfectly before God, in full obedience to that law that we ourselves were not able to obey on our own.

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12 hours ago, cgaviria said:

This isn't so, because belief through grace does not nullify the law, it upholds it, hence,

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 [NIV])

2

The sense of this is by no means, "The Christian is bound under Torah." The Torah is upheld inasmuch as its goal is completely realized and accomplished in God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Christ.

Quote

Because it was not by our own works of law that we are saved, but rather, by mere belief through grace that we then receive the holy spirit, and are then caused to walk perfectly before God, in full obedience to that law that we ourselves were not able to obey on our own.

 
 

First, "mere belief" as the definition of faith is both unbiblical and in contradiction to nearly the unanimous testimony of the Church. Second, Scripture knows of no "perfect walk" before God for the Christian. Third, the Spirit does not help us fulfill the laws of stoning blasphemers, observing dietary restrictions, or abstaining from sex during menstruation. These are all essential to Torah. Without them, it is not the Torah we are under but something else.

Again, your position denies Paul's argument Galatians 3-4. The Torah was temporary until Christ. There is no way around this in Galatians especially.

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9 hours ago, Nicene Nerd said:

The sense of this is by no means, "The Christian is bound under Torah." The Torah is upheld inasmuch as its goal is completely realized and accomplished in God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Christ.

First, "mere belief" as the definition of faith is both unbiblical and in contradiction to nearly the unanimous testimony of the Church. Second, Scripture knows of no "perfect walk" before God for the Christian. Third, the Spirit does not help us fulfill the laws of stoning blasphemers, observing dietary restrictions, or abstaining from sex during menstruation. These are all essential to Torah. Without them, it is not the Torah we are under but something else.

Again, your position denies Paul's argument Galatians 3-4. The Torah was temporary until Christ. There is no way around this in Galatians especially.

Scripture does indeed teach of a perfect walk, hence all the scriptures I quoted in another study, 

And ultimately, Jesus Christ himself demands it,

 You shall be then yourselves perfect, as your father, the one in the heavens is perfect. (Matthew 5:48 [ABP])

The spirit does indeed help abstain from sin, or why do you suppose it is written,

“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:26 [NASB])

The heart is where the desires are, as such, when the spirit of God enters inside the body, he removes evil desires, causing it to then become impossible to actually sin, hence,

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

The Torah is not just in force only up until Jesus Christ, it is in force up until heaven and earth vanishes, hence,

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:18 [NIV])
 

 

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1 hour ago, cgaviria said:

Scripture does indeed teach of a perfect walk, hence all the scriptures I quoted in another study, 

And ultimately, Jesus Christ himself demands it,

 You shall be then yourselves perfect, as your father, the one in the heavens is perfect. (Matthew 5:48 [ABP])

The spirit does indeed help abstain from sin, or why do you suppose it is written,

“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:26 [NASB])

The heart is where the desires are, as such, when the spirit of God enters inside the body, he removes evil desires, causing it to then become impossible to actually sin, hence,

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

2

This terrible exegesis is bad for Christianity, and it amounts to its own kind of legalistic works-righteousness.

Quote

The Torah is not just in force only up until Jesus Christ, it is in force up until heaven and earth vanishes, hence,

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:18 [NIV])

1
 

Nothing has disappeared or been removed from the Torah. But it has been all fulfilled and completed in Him. Just because the Torah is non-binding on the Church doesn't mean it has been undone, canceled, or disappeared. Rather, it has been accomplished.

Again, you deny Paul's entire argument of justification and adoption, especially in Galatians 3-4. How can you read Galatians 3-4 and say that the Torah is still over us?

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