Your just not arguing with facts. I have already shown it is possible both statistically and in probability for the current population exist from two individuals. Again, your arrogance is blinding. Adam and Eve's children would not have died faster because of inbreeding.

This post has been edited by God-Sent: Nov 4 2009, 02:12 PM

Why can't you use quote boxes?

And the fact that people had all kinds of religions with similarities is proof of religion evolving, yes. But that doesn't support your claim that Yahweh wasn't the first god to be worshiped. In fact, it could actually go against your argument, and even suggest that Yahweh WAS the first god to be worshiped, and people took that truth and perverted it into other religions.

No, I'm not a part of the YEC camp. You don't have to believe the earth is 6000 years old to realize that people didn't worship all kinds of other gods, then evolve to believe in the correct one.

Has anyone discovered the fact that Muslims believe in the Old Testament! Therefore it is the same God. thank you. End of story.

"Your just not arguing with facts. I have already shown it is possible both statistically and in probability for the current population exist from two individuals. Again, your arrogance is blinding. Adam and Eve's children would not have died faster because of inbreeding. "

any organisms offspring would die faster bc of inbreeding. And you showed no such stats; population growth simply bc of exponential growth numbers does not ensure a population's survival. It takes genetic diversity. Any biologist can tell you this.



Reincarnate; iPhone won't let me use boxes. But isn't it possible that Yahweh just evolves too? And is an eternal manifestation of all peoples' concept of god is ever changing; the truth is female deities existed long before male deities, however, and it's common belief that yahweh is masculine. Did god have a sex change?

mpok, I believe that Reincarnate was pressing at the fact that, even if evolution is true, this doesn't mean that the human person as an immortal (or rational, spiritual, etc) being existed before some special intervention of God. I would argue that the human species wasn't human in the sense we speak of "man" until some couple like an Adam and Eve were "adopted" by God as His son and daughter by revealing Himself to them.

If there is a Yahweh, then its probable that He initially revealed Himself to some people. How else would original sin have happened?

From there, perhaps the knowledge of God was lost until He re-revealed Himself to Abraham.

Female deities existed first? Says who? lol.

No. Why would he?


Prove that please.

I provided a link a the top of the page explaining how female deities show up before male deities.

Also i meant Yahweh evolves only bc peoples' perceptin of it evolves. I thought you were on the same page of debate.

Trust me about the female deities appearig first; fecundity and fertility goddesses existed long before Yahweh was written into history. Don't believe me? It doesn't matter to me. I'm just relaying what history and theology experts know. Real experts that actually teach at universities and not some crack smoking web master at answersingenesis.com.

That is funny.
Answers in Genesis is actually one of the few credible scientific organizations.

Uh, no, they aren't. Their credibility if anything is dishonest and incompetent. Aka frauds.

Anything that doesn't teach what you believe is a fraud to you.

Likewise.

Actually, that's not true. There's lots of things I don't agree with or follow but do not necessarily believe others to be wrong about it or a fraud.

This post has been edited by God-Sent: Nov 5 2009, 05:55 AM

It doesn't matter if they were existing before Yahweh was WRITTEN into history. Just because we don't know of any cave paintings or figurines of Yahweh, does NOT mean that not a single person in the world was aware of his existence. The absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Now, I'll address the link you gave me, even though I'd prefer a better source than a neopagan-run encyclopedia on the occult...

Your article discussed the use of "Venus Figures," though it seems to confuse the significance of fertility figures with actual deities. Venus figures are still open for speculation, and there is by no means a consensus among archaeologists or anthropologists about what they really meant.

Furthermore, it discusses cave paintings such as the one in Egypt depicting Isis. Well, there are cave paintings of male deities dating back to the end of the Middle Paleolithic when Homo sapiens first entered Europe (35,000 years before present). That is just as old as the earliest Venus figurines, which as I said, are not definitely godesses. And they're certainly older than any paintings of Isis. For more info on that, check out God: Myths of the Male Divine by David Leeming.

One thing the article doesn't discuss is the deities of the Catalhöyük site in Turkey. It's the largest known neolithic site and is also home to the oldest certified evidence of organized religion. They have carvings and figurines of female deities. However, they also have male deities which are just as old as the female ones.


And lastly, it seriously seems like I can't stress enough - proving that people worshiped godesses a long time ago does not prove that nobody was worshiping male gods (partially because there's proof that people were worshiping male gods). And on top of that, proving that people were worshiping other deities DOES NOT PROVE THAT NOBODY KNEW ABOUT YAHWEH.

Oh, PS: I don't read Answers in Genesis. As I said, I'm not a young earth creationist. Insulting AIG to me will do nothing, because I most likely agree.

But silly, this is God we're talking about. If He truly were omnipotent, then He would have no limitations as far as revealing Himself to man. Why should the Israelites be the only ones who had knowledge of Him before they spread to other parts of the world?

On another note, where has this debate gone? The last three pages or so seem entirely irrelevant to the original topic...

"But silly, this is God we're talking about. If He truly were omnipotent, then He would have no limitations as far as revealing Himself to man. Why should the Israelites be the only ones who had knowledge of Him before they spread to other parts of the world? "

delusion? I dunno.

Reincarnate; I agree with what you're saying for the most part. But Yahweh came into existence when they wanted Yahweh to come into existence. Yahweh is a Hebrew god, not a Paleolithic god. I'm not going to speculate without proof that versions I earlier goss might have been Yahweh bc that's just speculation,. You reinforce thi idea that the Hebrew god wasn't the same god found in cave paintings several tens o thousands of years ago. Paganism is simply much older than yahweh.

Godsent; I don't believe anything that's crazy or delusional.

Uhh. If Yahweh is real, then he's not defined by being Hebrew or from the Paleolithic. And he did not "come into existence when people wanted him to come into existence."

If you believe he was made up by the Hebrews, then I believe you're violating a certain rule of the forums by posting in this section.

"Uhh. If Yahweh is real, then he's not defined by being Hebrew or from the Paleolithic. And he did not "come into existence when people wanted him to come into existence.""

so, people were secretly worshipping yahweh even when they called it something else? Interesting.

I'm prety sure Yahweh is the Hebrew god correct? I didn't know other religins worshipped Yahweh.

"If you believe he was made up by the Hebrews, then I believe you're violating a certain rule of the forums by posting in this section."

Yahweh came from Elohim which are Hebrew/Judaic concepts. This is true; saying somehing factual isn't a violation of the rules. Or it may be; telling blatant lies and misconceptins isn't against the rules at all here lol.

Other way around. Yahweh was not the "Hebrew god", the Hebrews were Yahweh's people. There's a difference. Other religions did not worship Yahweh, obviously. However, they easily could have worshiped warped and changed versions of him, such as El of the Canaanites.



Believing that Yahweh is simply a concept that was invented by primitive people and has been continuously warped and modified in everyone's minds implies that he isn't real. If you don't believe he's real, you're not a Christian. If you're not a Christian, you're not allowed to post in the section explicitly labeled "Christian Debates."

This post has been edited by The Reincarnate: Nov 5 2009, 02:46 PM

"Believing that Yahweh is simply a concept that was invented by primitive people and has been continuously warped and modified in everyone's minds implies that he isn't real. If you don't believe he's real, you're not a Christian. If you're not a Christian, you're not allowed to post in the section explicitly labeled "Christian Debates."

I'm just being objective; it has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. Even Christians can be objective and realistic. Lies and misinformation is more of a Satan thing.

"Other way around. Yahweh was not the "Hebrew god", the Hebrews were Yahweh's people. There's a difference. Other religions did not worship Yahweh, obviously. However, they easily could have worshiped warped and changed versions of him, such as El of the Canaanites."

it's just nonobjective to assert Yahweh was the first god people ever worshipped. He may have been but there's little evidence to suggest that.

It doesn't matter if you're being objective or not. Christians have a stance, and it's that Yahweh is real. If Yahweh is real, then Yahweh was not some made up thousands of years ago by a bunch of desert wanderers so they could have some imaginary comfort. If your personal beliefs are that God is real, then it's completely contradictory to believe what you've been saying.


I didn't assert that Yahweh was the first god people ever worshiped. I'm asserting two things, 1) that he existed no matter who was worshiping him, and 2) that you can't prove that people weren't worshiping him.

"It doesn't matter if you're being objective or not. Christians have a stance, and it's that Yahweh is real. If Yahweh is real, then Yahweh was not some made up thousands of years ago by a bunch of desert wanderers so they could have some imaginary comfort. If your personal beliefs are that God is real, then it's completely contradictory to believe what you've been saying."

some Christians believe in truth too, which does require support to be objective. These are too principles of Christianity. And some debators can choose either an affirmative or counter stance in a debate no matter what thei personal beliefs are. Objectivity is apart of debate.

"I didn't assert that Yahweh was the first god people ever worshiped. I'm asserting two things, 1) that he existed no matter who was worshiping him, and 2) that you can't prove that people weren't worshiping him."

but can you prove that ancient civillizations on the other side of the globe many years prior before Yahweh was first concieved by people(or self revation to people) were worshipping the same god Yahweh.

But in a "Christain debate" it is pretty much assumed that all parties involved actually believe in God. Their personal beliefs aside, the existence of God is a given. You however have asserted that God doesn't exist, as he was fabricated in the minds of an ancient group of people.


Simplifying your question, you just asked me if I can prove that people were worshiping Yahweh before Yahweh was revealed. Following a simple stream of logic, no, as that would not make sense.

Going by what I know you mean though, no, why would I need to? Their lack of belief in Yahweh is not proof of anything. The belief of one group of people does not have any influence over another group of people in another part of the world.

This post has been edited by The Reincarnate: Nov 5 2009, 03:22 PM

Hence this whole thread is inobjectively making conclusions. Nothing can be learned from blind speculation.

It seems as soon as what your arguing is proven wrong, mpok, you say the whole debate is pointless or immature.