Hey guys, so here's the deal. I've always been very drawn to Catholicism, in some ways I think it's a beautiful religion and I'm very interested in some of the practices. I love rosaries, the art, those candles with the saints on them, the churches, the rituals are intriguing, and other things that are currently vague in my head. I think I can sort of subconsciously relate with it because I've been a polytheist for the past few years and wouldn't mind the idea of looking to different saints. I understand that you do not see them as gods, but to me there are a lot of similarities. I already pray or chant while using certain items, including jewelry, I also like having pictures or figurines of certain gods.

The problem is that Christianity on the whole doesn't make sense to me. It does not compute in my brain. I can understand it from an outside perspective, but it is not logical in my own mind and heart. I even view my own practice metaphorically at times. Not always, but sometimes. I don't think we can know the true nature of God or what he/she/they want. That is beyond human understanding. I don't really believe in the concept of "sin". The idea is totally alien to me. I think there are good and bad things to ourselves and within society, but not a God somewhere far away with a list of rules, who condemns things that are natural. I don't think I could wait to have sex until marriage, for example, for a dogma that doesn't make sense to me. I don't think I could refer to God as "He". I see deity as dwelling within and beyond everything. I believe humankind is their own "savior". They can look outside of themselves for guidance, but we are responsible for ourselves in most (if not all) ways. The list goes on and on.

When I see a Catholic that is well versed in philosophy and well educated, it really does intrigue me a lot. Sometimes I am fascinated by it, usually I want to just role my eyes. I can honestly say that my experiences with my own ideas of deity are VERY similar to some of the Christian experiences I've heard of. I know what it's like to know something amazing in your heart and mind and spirit and all around you and in you and above you, that dizzying feeling of pure spiritual ecstasy that tingles from my head to my toes and connects you with everything in the universe and the greater spirit. The kind that makes you want to cry and hug everyone, the one that makes you humble and makes you want to be the best that you can be and tell everyone how beautiful life is. The kind that makes you feel out of body and like you're dwelling in the stars. Everything is alive and at peace. I know what it's like to feel strength through God/gods. The strength that people talk about receiving through Jesus is similar to what I have found through my own gods. My gods have guided me, they have loved me, I have loved them, they have spoken to me, I feel them within me and without me, they've inspired me and helped me in so many ways. And the list goes on..

If you're a Christian you're probably thinking this is all Satanic and that Satan is in a disguise and he's tricking me and everybody else that's not Christian. I could also say that we have the correct God/gods and your God is a greedy alien tyrant in disguise trying to make you think that. But you say "but I know in my heart!" and that's not a very good argument because we can say that too...none of that is logical to me. We're in the same universe, same "God", just different personal interactions and ideas.

So I'm not sure where I'm going with this, I know some of you expect that I should be able to understand God through your viewpoint but I can't say I can. I really just want to have a better understanding of what it's like to see through the eyes of a Catholic. I've read things on it, but I don't see it through my own eyes. I want to be able to because it interests me so much. I can't say I will keep those shades on but I won't know until I try. I really doubt I will, but I am at an "in between" stage in my own practices right now and may as well take the opportunity to explore different ideas, even though they're foreign to me. If I better understand Christian ideas I can understand myself better as a pagan. And I guess it's kind of like an experiment? I don't know. A part of me is an agnostic that sees religion as just art, a part of me is extremely skeptical of everything.

If there are any Catholics that can tell me where to go from here that would be great. I really just want to talk to some, have things explained to me, get into some interesting discussions and go into the deeper theology behind things. If you throw something out there I will have tons of questions and comments.

Thanks.

Christianity is not much of a religion, it fits better as a lifestyle.

The greatest Gospel presentation is in the book of Romans from chapter 1-3. And what I'm about to tell you changes from person to person, and some of the members on here might not agree with what I have to say, but I believe it to be Scriptural, so I am going to attempt to explain to you Christianity.

If we believe history, and the fact that there was a man named Jesus who was a Galileean peasant, the descendant of Joseph, who is a descendant of Abraham and David, we already have proper justification to believe that Jesus truly did come as the Son of God. (If you go to www.redemptionradio.com you can find my two part sermon on the genealogy, I believe they're around episode 6 & 7).

Jesus came and lived a perfect life and performed many miracles, was falsely condemned, betrayed, and murdered. Because of your sinfulness and because of my sinfulness and because of the sick depraved beings we are (I assert that everyone is born evil and wicked due to sin), we can't have fellowship or communion with God. In fact, the wrath of God is poured out upon the unrighteous who [continually] suppress the truth of God's righteousness. We are all accountable to God for the sin we perform and the sin we choose. We are all guilty of not honoring God for His common grace, and we are all guilty of idolatry by worshiping the creature rather than the Divine Creator.
God is truly a jealous God and refuses to share His glory. He hates our sin and He wishes to crush us, and He has every right to do so.

For three hours while Christ was on the cross, He had to bear the wrath of God which was to be poured out upon you and me. (This is called propitiation.) If Christ did not bear the wrath of God, and bear the sins of those the Father gave Him on the cross, there is no way we can have fellowship with God as long as we live. We will die and we will stand before the Great White Throne of God and we will be cast into eternal darkness, agony, gnashing of teeth, suffering, and separation from God. People try to make this sound like God is cruel and mean, yet this is pure justice. God must punish the wicked whom have not repented.

But this is where Christ's death is more sufficient. Because of what Christ did, if we are faithful to confess our sin to God and repent of our sins, and truly fear YHWH (Yahweh) we will be saved (at least says protestantism, which is quite different from Catholicism.) I believe that we are saved by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in none other than Christ alone, for God's glory alone, attested to by the Scripture alone. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Salvation is of the Lord and I assert there is not a single thing we can do to provoke this event. I assert as a Calvinist that our wickedness prevents us from knowing or choosing God, unless God, before the foundation of the world, chose to know and love us and save us from His wrath. It is ultimately God who may send the Holy Spirit upon your life to convict you of the deepest of sins, give you His Spirit, remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, and cause you to walk in His statutes.

It isn't a prayer that saves you. It is walking by faith in the finished work of Christ, marked by a life of sanctification and repentance.

If this was insufficient for you to understand, might I suggest reading the book of Romans, chapters 1-3, and then you can read Ephesians (it's only six chapters), and if that fails, Matthew, then John, and if you still don't comprehend anything after that, just tell me and I'll proceed to give you further advice or instruction.

To touch upon a few things Jakob did not:



We can only know as much as God reveals to us. As Christians, we believe God has revealed as much knowledge as human beings need of God to make it through this life until we may be with Him face to face.



We were made in the likeness of God's image to live in tranquility and love. Anything which goes against the course of love and peace is a violation to our purpose. Love according to 1 Corinthians 13 is respectful, humble, patient, pure, hopeful, forbearing, seeks not her own, and never fails. It is those who are poor in spirit, who are meek, who hunger and thirst for righteousness, who are peaceful, generous, and most definitely merciful who are pleasing in the sight of God. These things are not merely natural, but they are the very nature of God Himself as witnessed by the apostles in the life of our blessed Lord and Savior. These traits are universally regarded as upright, lest God has given the man up to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient, that they may receive the chastisement of their sin for walking after the lusts of the flesh rather than fulfilling that which is most pleasing to God.



Many people fail to understand why this is a sin, so I will try and explain it. Sex was made by God as a blessing those who are united within the holy union of marriage. Therefore, it is not man's place to take sex and to do with it however he so pleases.

Finally, to add to Jakob's post, Christ's death alone is not what we place our faith in for the salvation of our souls. Had Christ stayed in the grave, he would have been just the same as any other man. Luke documents in his writing of Acts that "he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God" (Acts 1:3). Jesus was slain and dead for three days, but then God raised him up. It is recorded that the disciples saw Christ alive again, and even so much as handled his fleshly body, and put their hands in the scars from his crucifixion. These people lived by that doctrine, and not only that but went to the grave for it.

It is then clear in my mind that Jesus must've been God incarnate as they taught. In a court room, such a testimony would no doubt drastically effect one's case, so I view this very logically. But, this is your soul you're dealing with, and you must make the decision of what you will decide about Jesus after having reviewed the evidence and testimonies yourself.

Just as a note of warning, the two people who posted above me, although I love and respect both of these men, are not Catholic and do not hold my doctrines and practices close to their hearts. In fact, we've had a rousning round or two because they do not agree with a lot of the more beautiful side of faith (namely things like the Saints or the Eucharist).

Anyway, after getting that out of the way, I'd like to proudly declare that I am Catholic, and I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about anything related to my faith. There are also a few other well educated Catholics around here who I can point you to if I can not answer your question. I've just got some comments to some things that you have raised issues with.


We can never understand the true nature of the Christian God. It would be outside of our comprehenion because honestly, the Christian God is love that hates. The trinity is a formula that we will never truely understand. It is impossible to know the true nature of God, but we can know what He wants if and only if he reveils it to us. We are working with a God that is omnipotent, so if it is his will to have us understand a specific thing (like what He wants for us to do in a certain situtation) we will understand it.


First off, what is bad? What makes a thing bad? Things are bad because they lack good. It is just like something is cold because it lacks warmth. It's not a thing so much as a lack of a thing. If a thing is bad because it lacks good and all good from God, then whyn't a bad thing also a sin? A sin is something that distances one from God. It is, in essence, a thing that lacks God, so all bad things are sins. Unless, of course you have a different definition of bad or a difference source of all good, but in the Christian theology God is the source of all good.

I also don't think there is a God somewhere far away with a list of rules that condemns natural things either. I believe that our definitions of natural are different. Everything that is natural comes from God because God is the creator and made up nature. I do not see a single natural thing that is a sin, assuming it is done in the correct context. If you would like I can go into explaining why outside of marriage is the wrong context for sex, but that would take me a few paragraphs and I don't want to go into anything without you wanting to know it.


This is a symantic thing. We refer to God as He because the most concret example of God is as Jesus who was a man. It just helps to stabalize things if we keep it constant throughout for the whole trinity (BTW I realize that I've used this term twice, do you know what it is?).


I'm unsure if these two are connected, but I don't understand what you mean by humankind being it's own savior. Also, in the Catholic faith humans are responsible for all of their actions in all ways. We take this responsiblity very seirously and it leads to differing theologies from our Protestent brothers on what happens in the afterlife and things of that nature.


Emotions are a poor thing of which to base your faith. Although, I do believe that some emotional/physcial responces to things are true (it's not as if I haven't had my own), but they are so easily imitated by our body. If anything spikes our sympathetic nervious system, we will react int his mannor. It's how we're set up. Yes, people's body and chemistry do help people get closer to God at times, most people who have these experences fall hard after that rush is over. When one has to face the reality of being faithful in the world, these emotions, these experences mean nothing and are nothing.

Anyway, any questions you have for me, I'm open to, and I hope you enjoy your stay here on CTF.

A really great book is Catholic Christianity by Peter Kreeft. It's likely that if you contact someone at your local diocese you could get it for free, or else you could find it cheap on the internet. That is my first recommendation to learn about Catholicism.

One note:

If you wish to become Catholic, then there is no way for you to really do so without totally committing yourself to it. At confirmation (where you would be officially brought into the Church) you would have to say "I believe and profess all that the Holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God." That would mean abandoning your beliefs in polytheistic gods and other inconsistent ideas.

There are other things I could touch upon from your post, but I find that its best not to try and understand something all at once. You'll just find yourself confused. Learn about one thing, and make sure you understand it very well before you move to the next thing. Even if this feels like it takes a long time, its definitely worth it.

If you wish to PM me with further questions, I would happily oblige.

Amen. I agree with this. I will not add anything, though, as I am not Catholic and do not know a ton about their beliefs outside of what I read here, and there are plenty of people who actually know what they are talking about on this site that can help you.

Welcome to CTF, btw.

I've been looking into forms of Christian mysticism like Christian Kabbalah from the 13th century, and it's influence in paganism and magicka like Rosicrucianism in the 16th centuries. It's been a bit of an interesting endeavour.

If you want to have much more of a discussion about why I find the Christian myths to be beautiful and worth-while then PM me, I'm not interested in having that discussion on this thread as most other Catholics here are just a bit too conservative for me.

Josh

I guess it should be pointed out to the OP that to Josh a good Catholic (aka one who actually is in line with the Catholic Church's teachings) is merely a conservative Catholic. And I might also point out that Josh is to liberal like atomic bombs to .22's, so I wouldn't trust his analysis.

Aquinas is right, in a sense; I don't like conservative catholics. I find them narrow minded and extremely out of tune with reality.

But I'm also not a "liberal" in the Protestant sense of the word, I don't follow the 19th century German intellectuals, I'm much more interested in post-critical religious studies.

An also, I'd like to point out that although the majority of priests would probably prefer Aquinas' responses to their questions, the majority of catholic theologians are much more interested in pushing at the margins, just like myself.

Josh

That's us and our believing the same things Christianity has taught for 2000 years...



You're not Catholic, and you pretending to be so is offensive. Also, "pushing at the margins" as a euphemism for "contradicting Church doctrine" does not make one "daring" or "bold," just boring and disobedient. The Church is not interested in theologians who want to contradict her or mislead her faithful.

Guys please take your personal disagreements off this thread. You are not helping the OP by insulting each other.

This post has been edited by Zabby: Oct 25 2009, 04:12 PM

OK. No back-biting one another.

I just wanted to point out that there are a plurality of forms of catholicism and that, from my perspective, when one looks at the history one finds a lot of fluidity which push at the margins of contemporary conservative catholicism. As such I'm hoping that the OP wouldn't take this very popular conservativism at face value and rather search the history and push at the fringes. Thatsall.

Josh

I think that the desire for hypocritical Catholics is disgusting.