Confused on Catholicism

[Nitsuj Poy]

I read the explanations.
I still do not get it.
I think I have a thick head. Sorry, but it still sounds like obvious definites should be shown, in light of the endless nondefinites.
oh! That is what Papal Bull means. eep! Sorry about that. Threw me a curveball there.
Thought that was a slight. Thanks for that info.

I do see how the sexual orientation could be controversial, but my pondering pertains to one who changes gender.
If a man is proud to be gay, why would he want to become a straight woman?
Or even if a straight man wanted to be a lesbian.
What does changing yourself have to do with being proud of who you are?
This is what I have been trying to rationalize.
Thanks again for this stuff

[Christian Teen Forums]

[blackswan41]

I am also curious about transgender equality, if I may ask on this particular thread. It was brought up, so strikes me as applicable.

The pro LGBT folks promote being true to how God made you. Be it gay, straight, bi, etc.
How does changing your gender apply here?

To clarify any confusion on Catholicism's view on such matters it is helpful to visit the National Catholic's Bioethics Center:

This article on their site referencing transgender lists this stance: http://www.ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?p...0=10&ncs2510=3


"June 17, 2009. On June 2, 2009, President Barack Obama declared “June Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender (LGBT) Pride Month”. And with this declaration he has given us an opportunity to comment on aspects of the President’s position.

The declaration begins by noting certain injustices committed against individuals who identify themselves as belonging to a group called the “LGBT community”. The acronym refers to a wide range of sexual dysfunctions, including homosexual activities, cross-dressing, indiscriminate sex with men and women, and mutilating surgery that attempts to change a man into a woman or a woman into a man. Each of these activities raises serious moral concerns. In keeping with the teachings of our faith, we love the sinner and hate the sin, but we certainly do not believe that we should celebrate these unhealthy activities or take pride in them."

Frankly, I'm rather ashamed to be associated with some of the very liberal Catholic so-called open theologies being portrayed here.
--Mrs P

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------

The Catholic sermon is very open and general, usually about social justice or simply growing in faith. So because our Sunday worship centres around liturgy, it is able to unite differing viewpoints. I do not come to Church to be taught theology. I am pro-LGBTQ and do not want to be told how bad homosexuality is. I come to connect with the Sacred, not lectured.

How does one connect with the sacred when they are so scarred?

I'd sadly have to agree that many warm and fuzzy Catholic Churches have watered down its' theology to the point of mere pablum to appeal to the masses. If you truly desire to seek holiness, you are going to need to ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to a more traditional/orthodox Catholic parish which gives the hard truth. Pablum is for babies.

Might I say, I declare this in pure love for you.
--Mrs P

[Wesker]

I easily see the Catholic Church accepting people who have had a gender reassignment however I do not see the Church marring these people because of the lack of the ability to have that marriage produce children. The Catholic Churches understanding of marriage and sex is very much so based in the idea of procreation.

I think I am just as bad in the eyes of the Vatican as a would-be homosexual couple, because while I want to be married some day, I never intend to pass on my genetic material, nor be open to that possibility. I fully intend on adopting a little girl and raising her as my own.

I do see how the sexual orientation could be controversial, but my pondering pertains to one who changes gender. If a man is proud to be gay, why would he want to become a straight woman?
Or even if a straight man wanted to be a lesbian.
What does changing yourself have to do with being proud of who you are?
This is what I have been trying to rationalize.
Thanks again for this stuff

I am quite positive you do not understand how gender and sexuality function.

Frankly, I'm rather ashamed to be associated with some of the very liberal Catholic so-called open theologies being portrayed here.

The feeling is somewhat mutual. It pains me every-time the name of Christ is used to support injustice and prejudice against innocent people.

How does one connect with the sacred when they are so scarred?

You make the a priori assumption that homosexuality makes one scared. I do not hold to such a view. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are equally moral to me.

I'd sadly have to agree that many warm and fuzzy Catholic Churches have watered down its' theology to the point of mere pablum to appeal to the masses. If you truly desire to seek holiness, you are going to need to ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to a more traditional/orthodox Catholic parish which gives the hard truth. Pablum is for babies.

I have no idea if my parish is liberal or conservative. And frankly, I do not care. I do not hold these beliefs, because my parish told me to. I reject the Vatican's theology of the body, because it is philosophically unsound. And I refuse to allow the conservatives in the Roman Catholic Church to bully me, and tell me I am not a proper Catholic, because I am progressive. Quite honestly, I would still be an atheist today if I was not staunchly pro-LGBTQ. God and the Holy Ghost led me back to the Catholic faith through LGBTQ issues. Zabby can attest to that.

[blackswan41]

I have no idea if my parish is liberal or conservative. And frankly, I do not care. I do not hold these beliefs, because my parish told me to. I reject the Vatican's theology of the body, because it is philosophically unsound. And I refuse to allow the conservatives in the Roman Catholic Church to bully me, and tell me I am not a proper Catholic, because I am progressive. Quite honestly, I would still be an atheist today if I was not staunchly pro-LGBTQ. God and the Holy Ghost led me back to the Catholic faith through LGBTQ issues. Zabby can attest to that.

I count 9 "I" statements in the mere paragraph above. If one is truly to be transformed from a stony heart to a fleshy one, which is the essence of being a genuine Christian, that number is going to need to be changed. I say in all generosity, as I say to myself, "who really gives a flying fig what you (and I) think?" Pride is the food for all sin to grow from.

You may disdain me, but generally that only encourages my prayer and sacrifices for those I care about more. So that is what I will continue to do as you are most worthy I assure you.

For any others wondering what the big, bad wolf the Catholic Church says on such matters, check the Catechism here:

Chastity and homosexuality
CCC# 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,¹⁴¹ tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."¹⁴² They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.


#2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

#2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. "


Good day.
--Mrs P

[Zabby]

Notice as a staff member:

Please stop all discussion about homosexuality or those issues because we are not in the HDT and this is not an appropriate topic for that discussion.

I read the explanations.
I still do not get it.
I think I have a thick head. Sorry, but it still sounds like obvious definites should be shown, in light of the endless nondefinites.

I'm just not quite sure what you want to understand it. I can't point to a verse in scripture that says, "Mary was sinless." I can't really explain it any better than I have other to say that it's something that has been passed down through Tradition and it's something we hold to be true.

I do see how the sexual orientation could be controversial, but my pondering pertains to one who changes gender.
If a man is proud to be gay, why would he want to become a straight woman?
Or even if a straight man wanted to be a lesbian.
What does changing yourself have to do with being proud of who you are?
This is what I have been trying to rationalize.
Thanks again for this stuff

Okay, this has nothing to do with Catholicism. This is a lot to do with you not understanding what a transgender person is, and because I don't want to have to move this to the HDT, we're not going to get into it.

---------- Post added at 10:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 AM ----------

To clarify any confusion on Catholicism's view on such matters it is helpful to visit the National Catholic's Bioethics Center:

This article on their site referencing transgender lists this stance: http://www.ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?p...0=10&ncs2510=3


"June 17, 2009. On June 2, 2009, President Barack Obama declared “June Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender (LGBT) Pride Month”. And with this declaration he has given us an opportunity to comment on aspects of the President’s position.

The declaration begins by noting certain injustices committed against individuals who identify themselves as belonging to a group called the “LGBT community”. The acronym refers to a wide range of sexual dysfunctions, including homosexual activities, cross-dressing, indiscriminate sex with men and women, and mutilating surgery that attempts to change a man into a woman or a woman into a man. Each of these activities raises serious moral concerns. In keeping with the teachings of our faith, we love the sinner and hate the sin, but we certainly do not believe that we should celebrate these unhealthy activities or take pride in them."

Frankly, I'm rather ashamed to be associated with some of the very liberal Catholic so-called open theologies being portrayed here.
--Mrs P

Mrs P, know that I understand completely, respect, and honor your and the National Catholic Bioethics Center point of view, but it's not really official. I would much prefer it if you could come up with something from either the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Vatican to support your point of view. I understand the organization you've linked to does talk and work closely with these organizations, but they are not leaders in our Church and they do not declare doctrine.

And I'm going to make a side note that I absolutely hate the fact that our society has lumped transgender issues in with LGB issues. Transgenderism has nothing to do with sex or sexual orientation. It is a very serious mental condition that needs to be addressed in a loving and accepting way, and I'm not saying that people are crazy when they feel as though they are the opposite gender. I'm simply saying that the fact that there is such a major dissonance between their body and their mind is a condition that needs to be addressed in order for them to function properly in society.

If the Vatican or the Bishops come out with formal doctrine or an address that states that gender reassignment surgery to help in the mental stability of a person is sinful and should not be done, I will, of course, bow to their better knowledge and judgement, and align myself with their ideas, but while they are silent, I will have my advice go in the directions that will save lives or people's relationships with God.

[Wesker]

I count 9 "I" statements in the mere paragraph above. If one is truly to be transformed from a stony heart to a fleshy one, which is the essence of being a genuine Christian, that number is going to need to be changed. I say in all generosity, as I say to myself, "who really gives a flying fig what you (and I) think?" Pride is the food for all sin to grow from.

Using "I" in this instance is not an act of pride, it is an act of humility. I did not wish to be arrogant and extend my personal statements to others. However, I could easily substitute "we" as in "the progressive Catholic community".

We do not hold these beliefs, because our parishes told us to. We reject the Vatican's theology of the body, because it is philosophically unsound. And we refuse to allow the conservatives in the Roman Catholic Church to bully us, and tell us we am not a proper Catholics, because we are progressive. We are laity, we are priests, we are deacons, and we are Catholic whether you like it or not.

You may disdain me, but generally that only encourages my prayer and sacrifices for those I care about more. So that is what I will continue to do as you are most worthy I assure you.

I do not distain you. I harbor no ill towards you.

For any others wondering what the big, bad wolf the Catholic Church says on such matters, check the Catechism here:

For millions and millions of faithful Roman Catholics around the world, the Catholic Church ≠Roman Curia.

[Nitsuj Poy]

Ok.
This is all cool, then.
If not getting the movement, and seeking the understanding equates to not understanding gender and sexuality, I guess that means I do not. Although such a statement does not help, unless you suggest a curriculum on gender and sexuality.
But since all this is offtopic, anyway perhaps I could make a thread about it, if everyone is okay with that. I only thought it was on topic, because it was addressed by some as an openess of Catholicism, deal.
My apologies, brothers & sisters.

As for the designated topic, I am afraid being passed from tradition and held as true, is not enough info for me. Maybe I think too much, maybe not.
But I have a mega dose of skepticism of everything around me. Especially tradition.
According to tradition around where I live, I am weird & worthy to be cast aside.
So, by default (as small of an example as this is, among many others) I am not a fan of tradition and/or hand-me-down systems.
Not saying this is one of those, but the explanations I receive activate sensors inside my own head.
Anyone have any help on this?

Once again, thanks

[Zabby]

As for the designated topic, I am afraid being passed from tradition and held as true, is not enough info for me. Maybe I think too much, maybe not.
But I have a mega dose of skepticism of everything around me. Especially tradition.
According to tradition around where I live, I am weird & worthy to be cast aside.
So, by default (as small of an example as this is, among many others) I am not a fan of tradition and/or hand-me-down systems.
Not saying this is one of those, but the explanations I receive activate sensors inside my own head.
Anyone have any help on this?

Once again, thanks

You would hate Catholicism. We're founded on a tradition/hand-me-down system. Catholicism is something that is passed on from parent to child from bishop to bishop. We take pride in our unbroken lines stretching back to the original apostles. We take pride in our traditions and our culture. We take pride in being a hand-me-down system. To us, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel if it's been working for thousands of years.

[Wesker]

You would hate Catholicism. We're founded on a tradition/hand-me-down system. Catholicism is something that is passed on from parent to child from bishop to bishop. We take pride in our unbroken lines stretching back to the original apostles. We take pride in our traditions and our culture. We take pride in being a hand-me-down system. To us, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel if it's been working for thousands of years.

Tradition is superior to individualism, and I say this even though I do not follow the edicts of the Magisterium. For instance, an idea like the "left-behind" rapture (I think Catholics sometimes use the term rapture to refer to a final resurrection) seems nonsensical for contemporary Christians to believe. It was developed in the 17th century, meaning that Christianity has carried on a millenium and a half without believing in the "left-behind" rapture. It has no theological roots, and I think it is unwise to interpret those passages so vastly differently than Christians in antiquity have. That is not to say we should not view the biblical literature in an evolutionary light. All of our exegesis and interpretation should not be historical-criticism. Each generation and age applies the words in new light, which is why the Catholic Church understands the biblical literature as Living Words. Yet, we should always tread carefully when creating a new aspect of tradition.

[Nitsuj Poy]

Tradition can be wrong, though. That is the problem. Tradition is the idea of things being true, due to culture. ie passed on. ie hand-me-down.
When someone merely says "according to tradition" that sounds like one is basing the belief soley off of it being passed down. ie "legend has it..."

Plus, even catholics, themselves seem to break tradition. Seems the wheel was reinvented when a Pope professed that Mary was perfect.
Doesn't tradition change with every Papal Bull? Forgive me if I said that incorrectly

I disagree with the sentiment of "Tradition is superior to individualism". I think the two need to be balanced. Kinda like structure within chaos. If you have 100% no tradition, then you always have to start from scratch, standing on no one's shoulders. Hence we never evolve as a people, because what we discover would be discarded. But, without individualism, you only take what everyone else has discovered, thus canceling out true growth.