Pre-Destination

[Slave of Elyon]

Time is assumed to exist as a fundamental measurable unit but there is no scientific understanding of what time is. In fact if timer were somehow proven not to exist it could fit quite well with relativity rather than contract it. In either case, if either God is "outside" of time or if time is just an illusion, then I don't see how that solves the foreknowledge=determinism problem. Instead of saying "God knows what's going to happen and it has to happen that way" one would just say "God sees what is and it has to be that way."

Am I mistaken to say that in relativity time is treated as a dimension as space is, only another kind (almost like an inverse)? That is how I learned it. But really, I think time with be vindicated. While i know that intuition is certainly fallible, I do not think it can be ignored altogether. We know intuitively that time exists in a real way. There is no evidence against it, nor do I think there can be. I think the idea that time might not exist simply arises from exaggerating some peculiar mathematical possibilities and too literally realizing possible implications.
Either way, I agree that it makes no impact on determinism and foreknowledge. I am a strict determinist, as I said before.

That's quite a leap. It seems incredibly wide open to interpretation. Heavens and earth could mean the solar system or the earth's atmosphere or the entire universe or whatever else.

I disagree. I think the evidence favors the merism view, that "heavens and earth" is an instance where the two extreme bounds of creation are meant to include everything in between. When viewed in light of other usage of the term, I think it makes sense. Other places where "heavens" and "earth" are used together and seem to be the entirety of creation include Gen. 2:1 (where the phrase is expanded with "and everything in them"); Deut. 10:14; Judg. 5:4; 1 Chr. 16:31; Neh. 9:6; Ps. 89:11; Jer. 4:23, 23:24. A quick Google search reveals that this is the majority view on Genesis 1:1 across even varying interpretations of the chapter at large.

[Christian Teen Forums]

[Mr Spock]

I am a strict determinist, as I said before.

Since you seem to give some credence to scientific evidence, how does the apparent randomness seen in quantum physics not cast doubt on strict determinism? I don't believe in free will at all but I also don't believe everything is determined.

I disagree. I think the evidence favors the merism view, that "heavens and earth" is an instance where the two extreme bounds of creation are meant to include everything in between.[/COLOR]

The phrase itself assumes a human POV and a simplistic bronze age conceptualization nature. Even if we assume it is a merism authored by an all knowing God, translated thousands of years later correctly, we still ultimately don't know specifically what it is referring to because "earth" is not actually one of the "extreme bounds of creation" which makes the phrase seem more localized and not a reference to the vastness everything that exists everywhere.

[Mike Vargas]

I'm still having troubles with accepting/discerning this aspect. As a matter of fact, this is what hinders me from devoting my life totally to God.

Is anyone else having trouble with this, too?

Can anyone elaborate/explain this? Thanks.

Predestination is the Theory that God creates some people just to send them to Hell. This isn't the case and is nothing more than fallacitic nonsense. Every single human that every lived COULD have gone to Heaven, we just make our own choices that determine where we end up. So God just creates all of us knowing where we're going but not making us go anywhere. If he didn't create those that go to Hell, then it wouldn't be fair for anyone who earned passage into the Gates of Heaven, so that is why He allows it. No one (least of all myself xD) can comprehend the Infinite Wsidon of the Lord, but this is how I see it. Hope it helps you out!

[Mr Spock]

This isn't the case

Based on what fact?

[lonehunter65]

But if God KNOWS that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, what % chance is there that the sun will not rise tomorrow. In turn, if God knows that you're going to dance around like a chicken at noon tomorrow, what % chance is there that you will choose to do differently.

0%. I thought that much was obvious. His omniscience is absolute.

No one in this thread has been able to disconnect God's omniscience from human will. To do so, people have to make up some bizarre notion of God being outside of time. Good luck finding that one in the old Book.

Again, I think you are confusing foreknowledge with foreordination. Just because God knows what is going to happen doesn't mean he is forcing us to do something.

On determinism, even if everything isn't strictly determined at a sub-atomic level (some randomness perhaps in quantum mechanics and such) it is nevertheleses difficult to get around the fact that pretty much everything has a cause. Like falling dominoes, there are endless webs of causes and effects. When we say or think or do something it isn't happening in a vacuum, there chemical reactions an electrical impulses, etc etc. Narrowing down specifically what it means to choose something is difficult and what it would mean for that choice to be "free" is difficult.

I will never understand this kind of thinking. People assume that because we can trace things back through causes and effects, they assume it is happening strictly based on those causes. For example, the whole evolution deal. Because we could trace all organisms back to unicellular organisms through causes and effects, we don't need God there anymore. We know how it happened, evolution right? But no one ever stops and asks why it is happening. Why do these causes even have affects? Why do these cause and effect relationships uniformly follow the rules of nature? We have no reason to believe that they will. And on the other side, since we cannot find a cause and effect relationship in quantum mechanics, you assume that there is no reason for it to happen. That it is random, and leaves room for free will. Why would that be so? I may not be making a whole lot of sense here, but my point is just because everything has a cause does not eliminate the possibility of free will.

These discussions always start with the assumption that free will is obvious and that the burden of proof is on those who say otherwise. But whether in Biblical terms or in physics terms it seems that ideas like "freedom" and "will" are the odd, illdefined, concepts being asserted that need to be proved.

There is a burden of proof on both sides, because no of us can know for certain whether free will exists.

[Mr Spock]

Just because God knows what is going to happen doesn't mean he is forcing us to do something.

It's very difficult to substantiate that opinion. If there is a being in the universe today who has infallible knowledge that tomorrow you will scratch your head at 12:01 PM then it is reasonable to conclude that your inability to do any other action tomorrow at 12:01 PM equals a lack of freedom.

I will never understand this kind of thinking. People assume that because we can trace things back through causes and effects, they assume it is happening strictly based on those causes.

It's not necessary for it to be strictly determined by prior causes, but I see no reason to believe any action is free. What is an action you've done that has not the product of antecedent causes?

Neither materialistic determinism nor evolution demand that God be eliminated from the equation. Both require a first cause.

since we cannot find a cause and effect relationship in quantum mechanics, you assume that there is no reason for it to happen. That it is random, and leaves room for free will.

Not really. Some particles yield unstable/unpredictable movements and the "white noise" of a vacuum appears to be random. But these examples of quantum level randomness do not translate into conscious will. When you choose to scratch your head tomorrow at 12:01 pm there will be a chain of events that precipitate that event. Perhaps at the sub-atomic level some of those events were impacted by sub-atomic randomness. It does draw into question the idea of strict determinsim on one hand, on the other hand but it still does not help to establish that people have a free will.

[Slave of Elyon]

Since you seem to give some credence to scientific evidence, how does the apparent randomness seen in quantum physics not cast doubt on strict determinism? I don't believe in free will at all but I also don't believe everything is determined.

They key word is "apparent." The fact is that no one actually knows what quantum mechanics means; the idea that real randomness is involved is simply one possible mysterious interpretation. Personally, I think research will probably one day remove the veil of obscurity from QM and show that it is as orderly as the macroscopic world. So far, no tangible evidence has been found that true randomness exists, so by this precedent I doubt QM will always seem random.

Predestination is the Theory that God creates some people just to send them to Hell.

No, that's really not the point at all. In fact, the Bible explicitly uses the term "predestine" in relation to salvation on a few occasions (Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11). Basically, it comes down to what you believe predestination is. There are three main views.

• Unconditional election: Because all of mankind is lost and broken in sin, God looked at the fallen mass of humanity and chose some of them out of pure grace and mercy to save. He did not look into the future to see their faith, works, or other merit. He simply chose them according to His infinitely wise plan. He then sets out to bring about their faith and salvation.
• Conditional individual election: In eternity past, God looked into the future and saw everything who would freely place their faith in Him. These He chose to justify, sanctify, and glorify.
• Corporate election: God didn't predestined people themselves in any way, but predestined Jesus to be the Savior of His Church. Whoever is in Christ is elect, and whoever is not in Christ is not elect.

I believe in unconditional election. The biggest reason is that I think it is the straightforward teaching of Romans 9.

If he didn't create those that go to Hell, then it wouldn't be fair for anyone who earned passage into the Gates of Heaven, so that is why He allows it.

That's not exactly what the Bible says. Romans 9:22-23 says, "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory?"
More importantly, did you seriously just say that people earn their way into Heaven?