'once Saved Always Saved'

[JordanL]

Me thinks I'm going to move this to God, Church, & Faith. Gracias

[Lion_Angel]

I do not agree with OSAS. And I will tell you why after just having written a paragraph trying to show that I did believe it. Funny how that works. Once you start arguing a point, you sometimes find holes and exceptions and then you have to change your opinion.

A relationship with Christ is just that--a relationship. What is your relationship with your friends? Your family? Your father or mother? Does it not take attention? We grow up knowing that we love our parents just as most of us have grown up knowing that we should love God. But just as with child-parent relationship, with God we come to a point in time when we must ask, "Do I love God? Why? Why would He love me?" We do this with friends as well--probably more often with friends (at least I do.) What am I getting at?

Relationships are not always permanent. Some children live their entire lives in resentment toward a parent or sibling or a friend that is now a fiend. We may have had a relationship in the past, we may have even made a vow to hold onto our love for that person and vice versa. Yet sometimes it does not stay together. I must say, God is always faithful.

The reason I was going to argue being FOR OSAS is because it is very difficult for me to see how someone who had once had a true relationship with God--and a true relationship with God is a very beautiful thing, the most peaceful yet painful (I say painful because it is so hard to deny myself) things--could turn from such a union with Christ and not surrender to the Holy Spirit's calling. Because God does not let us go: He is always calling us to Him I believe. And for me I guess it's very difficult to imagine someone forever ignoring the Spirit's call. Yet just because it is hard for me to understand, does not mean that it is impossible. I do believe it is possible for a Christian--a true Christian--to become no longer a Christian. It doesn't mean they weren't true at the time, but it also doesn't mean that they are safe in their sins at present because of a past. Our past sin does not govern our present condition (because of Christ's sacrifice), and I thus do not believe our past beliefs governs our present condition. It is Today that matters. It is the Now that matters, as cheesy as that may sound.

melz

[Jarrax Volk]

I do not agree with OSAS. And I will tell you why after just having written a paragraph trying to show that I did believe it. Funny how that works. Once you start arguing a point, you sometimes find holes and exceptions and then you have to change your opinion.

A relationship with Christ is just that--a relationship. What is your relationship with your friends? Your family? Your father or mother? Does it not take attention? We grow up knowing that we love our parents just as most of us have grown up knowing that we should love God. But just as with child-parent relationship, with God we come to a point in time when we must ask, "Do I love God? Why? Why would He love me?" We do this with friends as well--probably more often with friends (at least I do.) What am I getting at?

Relationships are not always permanent. Some children live their entire lives in resentment toward a parent or sibling or a friend that is now a fiend. We may have had a relationship in the past, we may have even made a vow to hold onto our love for that person and vice versa. Yet sometimes it does not stay together. I must say, God is always faithful.

The reason I was going to argue being FOR OSAS is because it is very difficult for me to see how someone who had once had a true relationship with God--and a true relationship with God is a very beautiful thing, the most peaceful yet painful (I say painful because it is so hard to deny myself) things--could turn from such a union with Christ and not surrender to the Holy Spirit's calling. Because God does not let us go: He is always calling us to Him I believe. And for me I guess it's very difficult to imagine someone forever ignoring the Spirit's call. Yet just because it is hard for me to understand, does not mean that it is impossible. I do believe it is possible for a Christian--a true Christian--to become no longer a Christian. It doesn't mean they weren't true at the time, but it also doesn't mean that they are safe in their sins at present because of a past. Our past sin does not govern our present condition (because of Christ's sacrifice), and I thus do not believe our past beliefs governs our present condition. It is Today that matters. It is the Now that matters, as cheesy as that may sound.

melz[/b]

I don't agree with OSAS either. Why? God does not force us to remain saved. If we want to do things after our initial salvation that are against His will, He'll let us--but we'll also experience all the consequences for those actions. Scripturally, if those actions are forbidden by God we will not stay saved when we commit them.

Eze 33:8-9 KJV

(8) When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

(9) Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Eze 33:12-19 KJV

(12) Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

(13) When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

(14) Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

(15) If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

(16) None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

(17) Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

(18) When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

(19) But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.[/b]

God does not change. Christ fulfilled the Law, He did not change it. If we sin and trust in our former salvation, we will surely die. Only if we turn away from our sins (deliberate actions or lust after those things God has forbidden), asking forgiveness from God shall we live. I do believe this means we ask forgiveness for every single sin, as we commit them.

You might object: "God's love will keep us saved!". This is not so. God promises that no one else will take us out of His hand. He never says we cannot do so. More than that, God's love =/= God's salvation. God loves everyone, but not everyone is saved.

I'd type out a huge post, but I don't have time now.

http://www.christianteenforums.com/Perseve...nts-t68675.html -- see this link for a partial discussion over OSAS, the Calvinistic equivalent, Perseverance of the Saints, and the Conditional Salvation of Arminianism.

http://www.christianteenforums.com/Calvinism-t67651.html Also here, for a more in-depth discussion between Calvinism and Arminianism.

I think you'll see why I'm Arminian--and feel free to ask questions. I welcome the discussion.

[Jakob]

I think maybe we should go backwards now and consider what we're defining as "salvation."

The Apostolic Authorized message of the Gospel for salvation is no where close to the message of salvation we preach today. It almost never involves our sin, the crucifixion, and especially the resurrection which the entire thing depends upon. They make Jesus to be a psychiatrist for your life problems more than a doctor for your depraved state.

The salvation spoken of in the Bible is much different than the "salvation" we are seeing today by people who walk down aisles and rest their salvation in a prayer. This is an incredibly low view of regeneration (which is a Biblical word in reference to salvation in the book of Titus). Ezekiel 36 and 37 exist in the Bible to show to us the regeneration that God performs in our hearts. We are the dead and dry bones that have been made flesh. Ephesians 2 will further explain to you our former state, and consequentially our current state in Christ.

Jonathan Edwards after the Great Awakening saw supposive converts falling away from the faith, which initiated his published book A Treatise Concerning the Religious Affections.

In my opinion, as I consider God's greatest objective--His Glory being magnified-- I see that our eternal security is imperative. Especially in terms of election. That we as Christians are called out amongst a sea of raging sinners and we have been eternally elected and predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. Israel was a nation chosen for God's salvation and now we as both Jews and Gentiles share in this one common election for God's greatest and ultimate purpose in the history of redemption.

Our justification, reconciliation, down payment of the Spirit, regeneration, new heart, and so much more is God's loving gift to us that we are eternally His to share in Him and His glory forever and ever.

This contains my presuppositions that the Doctrine of Election is true (which I would argue both philosophically and theologically because I think it's the only possible solution) and that God's greatest end in our existence is His glory (which I believe is absolutely imperative).

[Jarrax Volk]

In my opinion, as I consider God's greatest objective--His Glory being magnified-- I see that our eternal security is imperative. Especially in terms of election. That we as Christians are called out amongst a sea of raging sinners and we have been eternally elected and predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. Israel was a nation chosen for God's salvation and now we as both Jews and Gentiles share in this one common election for God's greatest and ultimate purpose in the history of redemption.

Our justification, reconciliation, down payment of the Spirit, regeneration, new heart, and so much more is God's loving gift to us that we are eternally His to share in Him and His glory forever and ever.

This contains my presuppositions that the Doctrine of Election is true (which I would argue both philosophically and theologically because I think it's the only possible solution) and that God's greatest end in our existence is His glory (which I believe is absolutely imperative).[/b]

1. No individual is Scripturally, individually predestined. Look at every passage concerning predestination. You'll find that they refer to categories of people: those who accept Christ and those who do not. If not that, then they refer to nations--Romans 9-11 is a good example. Is there a call to salvation? Most definitely, but this call is neither all-consuming nor irresistible.

2. Let's go with the bolded definition, but also add human responsibility into it. As I said before . . . God is not a tyrant. He will not force us to remain saved, nor will He manipulate our wills to make us never leave.

[Deborah]

I absolutely do NOT believe in "OSAS".

In the book of Hebrews, the doctrine of apostasy is briefly introduced. It's termed the "unforgivable sin", when one blasphemes the Holy Spirit.

While researching about apostacy for a few years, I was terrified that I would accidentally commit that sin, and not go to heaven. However, several pastors (Calvanist and Arminian alike--though not ALL of each party believes in it) explained that an apostate NEVER becomes one accidentally. You can't just lose your faith like turning off a light.

Firstly, It's a very long, deliberate road that gets you to that point. Secondly, an apostate doesn't have any remorse or consideration of his eternal destination. If you fervently work on your relationship with Christ, you won't commit that unforgivable sin.

At first, it seems like it would contradict God's loving character, but you have to remember that God is a JUST being. He allows His children FREE WILL. I believe that you can fall out of the grace of God, by committing apostasy, if you CHOOSE to. God will not forsake you, but one can always forsake Him. It's a scary thought, but it does align with God's just nature.

The only thing about predestination and election that I just don't understand is how can one believe that God damns some people to hell, and some not- with no choice on their part?

Also, how do you know that you're one of the elect? Maybe I am, and you're not. How are you confident you're one of them?

One more question- why send out missionaries? If God's already predestined everyone who's going to be saved, then there's no point. Sure, you could say "Since we don't know, we'll just minister to them all", but at the same time, it won't matter since God's already chosen for us.

I just can't understand that. I'm open to learning that viewpoint; I just don't know how to accept that.

[GodsLoveNeverFails]

I'll throw my two cents in here.

Point 1: Jesus died and rose again so that everyone can be saved (calvinist please don't debate this here)

Point 2: Only those that truly believe point one are saved

Point 3: Ok so we are saved by grace through faith because of what Jesus has already done

Point 4: The bible says that faith without works is dead so therefore if we truly have faith in God then we are going to keep his commandments

Point 5: So if we sin then we are obviously in a state of unbelief

Point 6: and if we are in a state of unbelief then we are not saved, because salvation is only through faith

Point 7: If someone has already been truly born again and they slip up and fall into sin/unbelief then they can always get out of sin and unbelief by repenting and believing again on what Jesus has already done

Point 8: but if we die in sin/unbelief then we will die unsaved because salvation is only through faith

For only "he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matthew 10:22

I have wrote two articles about this if anyone is interested in reading them

Faith Alone

http://www.exampleofgrace.net/faith-alone.php

In Christ

http://www.exampleofgrace.net/in-christ-crucified.php

[Jakob]

1. No individual is Scripturally, individually predestined. Look at every passage concerning predestination. You'll find that they refer to categories of people: those who accept Christ and those who do not. If not that, then they refer to nations--Romans 9-11 is a good example. Is there a call to salvation? Most definitely, but this call is neither all-consuming nor irresistible.

2. Let's go with the bolded definition, but also add human responsibility into it. As I said before . . . God is not a tyrant. He will not force us to remain saved, nor will He manipulate our wills to make us never leave.[/b]

1. Paul is very emphatic that He Himself was "chosen." The Greek word reflects the sovereign election type.

Galatians 1:

11For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Your argument for general election (which in a sense there is a general call to election) seems to ignore the very precise Greek words used including the word elektos which is where we get election from.

Paul seems to regularly declare Himself as being saved by the will of God, including in His introductions to most letters.

See Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God[.]

In relation to the nations debate, some wish to insist that Romans 9 when it comes to Jacob and Esau in terms of being hated or loved, the context immediately would appear to be the individuals, not the nations because they were elected before they had done anything.

All major Biblical figures were risen due to God's calling. Noah was saved by the grace of God, as was Abraham and all of the prophets. Samuel, Saul, Peter, Paul, et cetera. I'm very adamant in the fact that God is the one who justifies and saves us.

I will not be so strict in saying however that God will take over our will and force us to believe in such a thing, I will say that due to humans nature we will choose that which is most desirable and God will work in our hearts and in such a way that He will be the most desirable thing.

Regeneration: God replaces our heart

Conversion: In return, we seek the Father.

It's a God initiated covenant (as are all Biblical covenants) that are unilateral and eternal. We as Christians have been loved with an eternal love, been blessed with every spiritual blessing, elected, adopted, chosen, forgiven, redeemed, justified, we are being sanctified, we will be glorified in one point, and it is God who has ordained and declared our salvation and humanity be brought out in such a way for His highest glory that we may have no boast in anything. I chose God because He chose me to choose Him. Therefore my will is exerted according to my own accord and God remains benevolent.

2. I would like to clarify that there is a view of the doctrine of perseverance of the saints that would make it appear as though it is a switch initiated by God. Perhaps that He flips the switch from "sinner" to "saint" and in doing so we are eternally secure. I would like to clarify this is by no means the proper view of eternal security.

Eternal security is carried out in our lives by God working in us, through us, and from and to those around us. Isaiah at some point makes note that priests existed as a means of eternal security, similarly pastors do as well. We are also blessed with the Holy Spirit which is to convict us of sin and keep us close.

My salvation is not dependent upon a switch God has initiated but by how God has already sought me and delivered me from my sins, and how He will continually, daily, relentlessly pursue me until the day I die and I am before Him complete.

I am very adamant about my view of election. It is one of the only (if not the only) systematic theology I abide 100% to. I am confident within every bone in my body and from almost within every book of the Bible that it is God who chooses, pursues, reconciles, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies us. His love for His glory as highest is dependent upon this.

God chose and pursued Israel despite how they whored around continually and He has preserved them even today. You do not see Caananites or Moabites. Israel is the only nation that existed in that day that still exists today. It is only by the grace of God that we may be preserved and kept in Him.

I will however concede that there are very, very difficult portions of Scripture like Hebrews 6 that are very tricky in relation to such truths. But then there are many portions of Scripture that would dare to counteract such a passage. There will ultimately be harmony amongst the text.

There is a hermeneutical principle which has a name that escapes me- essentially it says we interpret difficult passages in light of far more clear ones. Hebrews 6 is one that applies.

Here is a partially extensive list of verses which would assert perseverance of the saints:

* John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

* John 6:35-37: And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

* John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone ****** them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to ****** them out of My Father's hand.

* Romans 5:9: Much more than, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

* Romans 8:1: [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

* Romans 8:35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

* Romans 8:38-39: For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

* Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.

* Hebrews 3:14: For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.[7]

* 1 John 2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

* 1 Corinthians 15:10: But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God [which was] with me.

* 2 Corinthians 5:19: God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

* Ephesians 4:6: But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

* Ephesians 4:30: Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

* Philippians 1:6: being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ;

* 2 Timothy 1:12: For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

* 2 Timothy 2:13: If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

* Hebrews 13:20-21: Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

* 1 John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

* 1 John 5:4-5: For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

* Ephesians 1:13-14: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

* John 17:2,12: "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

* 1 Corinthians 1:6-8: Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

* 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

* 2 Thessalonians 3:3: But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard [you] from the evil one.

* Hebrews 9:12: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

* 1 Peter 1:3-5: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

* 1 John 5:11-13: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

* Hebrews 6:17-19: Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.) This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,

* Jeremiah 32:39-40: "then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me".

* Psalms 121:1-8: I will lift up my eyes to the hills From whence comes my help? My help [comes] from the LORD, Who made heaven and earth. He will not allow your foot to be moved; He who keeps you will not slumber. Behold, He who keeps Israel Shall neither slumber nor sleep. The LORD [is] your keeper; The LORD [is] your shade at your right hand. The sun shall not strike you by day, Nor the moon by night. The LORD shall preserve you from all evil; He shall preserve your soul. The LORD shall preserve your going out and your coming in From this time forth, and even forevermore.

* Isaiah 46:3-4: "Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, Who have been upheld [by Me] from birth, Who have been carried from the womb: Even to [your] old age, I [am] He, And [even] to gray hairs I will carry [you]! I have made, and I will bear; Even I will carry, and will deliver [you].

* Romans 9:6-8: But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel, nor [are they] all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who [are] the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

* Psalms 20:6: Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He will answer him from His holy heaven With the saving strength of His right hand.

* Psalms 31:23: O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

* Psalms 37:28: For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

* Psalms 55:22: Cast your burden on the LORD, And He shall sustain you; He shall never permit the righteous to be moved.

Not every one in the list is the best example, but it's either one or the other.

And if God's greatest treasure is His glory and if He is determined to exalt that (which He is and must be for nothing is greater) than He will be most glorified in being the Creator and Sustainer of our redemption.

[Jarrax Volk]

1. Paul is very emphatic that He Himself was "chosen." The Greek word reflects the sovereign election type.

Galatians 1:

11For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Your argument for general election (which in a sense there is a general call to election) seems to ignore the very precise Greek words used including the word elektos which is where we get election from.[/b]

"Set me apart" refers to the divine plan God has for each of us. "Called me" refers to a drawing, but one Paul was free to resist. If he had resisted it, God would still have had a plan for him, but it would have not been the one taken. As for the Greek, I'll check it with some of my professors.

Paul seems to regularly declare Himself as being saved by the will of God, including in His introductions to most letters.

See Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God[.][/b]

Yes, this is not unusual. Why? Because God does will everyone to be saved, and in doing so He willed that Paul to be saved, but this salvation was not forced, nor was it coercive, nor deceptive, nor irresistible.

In relation to the nations debate, some wish to insist that Romans 9 when it comes to Jacob and Esau in terms of being hated or loved, the context immediately would appear to be the individuals, not the nations because they were elected before they had done anything.

All major Biblical figures were risen due to God's calling. Noah was saved by the grace of God, as was Abraham and all of the prophets. Samuel, Saul, Peter, Paul, et cetera. I'm very adamant in the fact that God is the one who justifies and saves us.

I will not be so strict in saying however that God will take over our will and force us to believe in such a thing, I will say that due to humans nature we will choose that which is most desirable and God will work in our hearts and in such a way that He will be the most desirable thing.

Regeneration: God replaces our heart

Conversion: In return, we seek the Father.[/b]

William Lane Craig on Romans 9

Why does Romans 9 still refer to nations, not individuals? Because when Paul referred to Jacob and Esau, at their time they were the nations. Jacob's descendants had not even lived yet.

Yes, the biblical figures were saved by the grace of God--this does not mean their salvation was irresistible or eternal no matter what if they sin.

YES, God justifies and saves us. Yes, God has a plan for all of our lives. Yes, He had plans for the patriarchs. This does not mean they could not freely choose to not be saved. Also, this does not mean they could not freely step away from their salvation.

I should say that here I would introduce a Molinist influence: if a person will freely choose to be saved in one set of circumstances, then God will bring about that set of circumstances. Since He knows that a person would freely choose not to be saved under all circumstances . . . well, that's all she wrote. Nevertheless, this doesn't have much bearing on whether we must stay saved or not. Keep in mind, the choice to leave is our own. If we sin, we choose to leave. If we start to dislike God, then it is our choice to do so. God does His part to draw us. We have a choice to respond to that grace--and that choice is continuous. Should I choose to right now, I could rescind my salvation (voluntary choice, sin, etc) and God would not be at fault. Because God desires free service over automatons, He will allow us to step away if we so choose.

It's a God initiated covenant (as are all Biblical covenants) that are unilateral and eternal. We as Christians have been loved with an eternal love, been blessed with every spiritual blessing, elected, adopted, chosen, forgiven, redeemed, justified, we are being sanctified, we will be glorified in one point, and it is God who has ordained and declared our salvation and humanity be brought out in such a way for His highest glory that we may have no boast in anything. I chose God because He chose me to choose Him. Therefore my will is exerted according to my own accord and God remains benevolent.[/b]

God's covenants are also conditional, "If-then" Suzerainity covenants. We cannot boast in salvation--God is the only one who effects salvation unto us. God did not force us to choose Him (what if I don't want to be chosen?). Now, God is sovereign--absolutely so--but the God of Scripture voluntarily limits Himself to acting according to our free will. Therefore, the whole "we are the clay and could not choose" argument doesn't work.

In your scenario, your will is exerted according to God's overriding coercion, not your completely free will.

God chose and pursued Israel despite how they whored around continually and He has preserved them even today. You do not see Caananites or Moabites. Israel is the only nation that existed in that day that still exists today. It is only by the grace of God that we may be preserved and kept in Him.

I will however concede that there are very, very difficult portions of Scripture like Hebrews 6 that are very tricky in relation to such truths. But then there are many portions of Scripture that would dare to counteract such a passage. There will ultimately be harmony amongst the text.

There is a hermeneutical principle which has a name that escapes me- essentially it says we interpret difficult passages in light of far more clear ones. Hebrews 6 is one that applies.[/b]

God always keeps after people, but this desire for salvation did not make Israel be saved. They were saved because they freely responded to God's call. Hebrews 6 isn't very tricky from an Arminian perspective: plain-meaning of Scripture here.

Would the term be the perspicuity of Scripture?

Here is a partially extensive list of verses which would assert perseverance of the saints:

* John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

* John 6:35-37: And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

* John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone ****** them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to ****** them out of My Father's hand.

* Romans 5:9: Much more than, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

* Romans 8:1: [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

* Romans 8:35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

* Romans 8:38-39: For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

* Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.

* Hebrews 3:14: For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.[7]

* 1 John 2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

* 1 Corinthians 15:10: But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God [which was] with me.

* 2 Corinthians 5:19: God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

* Ephesians 4:6: But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

* Ephesians 4:30: Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

* Philippians 1:6: being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ;

* 2 Timothy 1:12: For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

* 2 Timothy 2:13: If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

* Hebrews 13:20-21: Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

* 1 John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

* 1 John 5:4-5: For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

* Ephesians 1:13-14: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

* John 17:2,12: "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

* 1 Corinthians 1:6-8: Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

* 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

* 2 Thessalonians 3:3: But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard [you] from the evil one.

* Hebrews 9:12: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

* 1 Peter 1:3-5: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

* 1 John 5:11-13: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

* Hebrews 6:17-19: Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.) This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,

* Jeremiah 32:39-40: "then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me".

* Psalms 121:1-8: I will lift up my eyes to the hills From whence comes my help? My help [comes] from the LORD, Who made heaven and earth. He will not allow your foot to be moved; He who keeps you will not slumber. Behold, He who keeps Israel Shall neither slumber nor sleep. The LORD [is] your keeper; The LORD [is] your shade at your right hand. The sun shall not strike you by day, Nor the moon by night. The LORD shall preserve you from all evil; He shall preserve your soul. The LORD shall preserve your going out and your coming in From this time forth, and even forevermore.

* Isaiah 46:3-4: "Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, Who have been upheld [by Me] from birth, Who have been carried from the womb: Even to [your] old age, I [am] He, And [even] to gray hairs I will carry [you]! I have made, and I will bear; Even I will carry, and will deliver [you].

* Romans 9:6-8: But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel, nor [are they] all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who [are] the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

* Psalms 20:6: Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He will answer him from His holy heaven With the saving strength of His right hand.

* Psalms 31:23: O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

* Psalms 37:28: For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

* Psalms 55:22: Cast your burden on the LORD, And He shall sustain you; He shall never permit the righteous to be moved.

Not every one in the list is the best example, but it's either one or the other.[/b]

Be wary of claiming support unless you can do so from even the "tricky" passages. After all, the tricky passages may, since each Scripture influences the others, invert the meaning of those passages you now claim for support . . . .

And if God's greatest treasure is His glory and if He is determined to exalt that (which He is and must be for nothing is greater) than He will be most glorified in being the Creator and Sustainer of our redemption.[/b]

Yes, He is. Arminianism fully affirms God being the Creator and Sustainer of our Redemption. Also, Arminianism fully affirms God's voluntary limits on His own active (not potential) power by giving and maintaining our free will to choose that salvation which He sustains as long as we want Him to.

[Jakob]

There's only so far of the argument I'm willing to go. Particularly because this is a very dear doctrine to me and I tend to get ahead of myself or become too frustrated.

I think the biggest problem is that you're considering Molinism as plausible.

From CARM.org

The problems here are multifaceted. First, it means that God looks into the future to see what people will do and saves them based on their choices. Therefore, God reacts to man's choices and God saves a person based on some quality (the ability to make a right choice) that the person possesses. But this is showing partiality (favoring one person over another based on a quality in/of that person), something that God condemns (Rom. 2:11). Also, Molinism does not answer why one person chooses God and another does not, when it is God who makes the person and puts him in that place and time. In other words, what is it about the human free will that God has made that enables him to choose God or not? Just saying it is up to the individual doesn't answer the question. The hard-core Molinist cannot answer this question adequately.

Second, Middle Knowledge means that God learns what the actual choices of people will be only when they occur. God would then be ignorant about man's future choices. This violates the scripture that says God knows all things (1 John 3:20), not just all things that actually happen. In fact, the very verses used by Molinists to support Middle Knowledge (Matt. 11:21-24 and 1 Cor. 2:8) can be used to show that God's knowledge is absolute when it comes to potential events, not developing. He doesn't learn. He knows!

Third, Middle Knowledge (as it relates to human freedom) fails to properly understand the depravity of man. The scriptures do not say that the unregenerate can freely choose God. In fact, the contrary is taught. It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness (John 3:19), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20). Therefore, what is important here is understanding that an unbeliever is incapable of understanding and accepting Christ given the condition of his nature in a fallen, unregenerate state. This is why the Bible says such things as it is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30) and adoption (Eph. 1:5) according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), and works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).

Though God does know all things actual as well as potential, He also knows exactly what choices we will make at any time, not because God is a good guesser, but because God has predestined and ordained whatsoever comes to pass (Acts 4:27-28; Eph. 1:11).[/b]

And not to be desperate but may I remind you that free will is only by nature a philosophical concept and has been widely debated since its inception.

The will is free in that it may freely choose that which is most pleasurable to it and the sovereignty of God.

I'd also like to make mention that not all covenants are conditional. God put Abram to sleep in order that the covenant may be unilateral.

Theoretically, all covenants flow from the everlasting covenant. And the everlasting covenant surely is unilateral, at least between God and man, God and Christ however may be a different story (see Covenant Theology).

And in closing

God always keeps after people, but this desire for salvation did not make Israel be saved. They were saved because they freely responded to God's call.[/b]

This honestly is the exact opposite to everything Scripture says in relationship to Israel.

8But you, Israel, my servant,

Jacob, whom I have chosen,

the offspring of Abraham, my friend;

9you whom I took from the ends of the earth,

and called from its farthest corners,

saying to you, "You are my servant,

I have chosen you and not cast you off";

10fear not, for I am with you;

be not dismayed, for I am your God;

I will strengthen you, I will help you,

I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.[/b]

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold,

my chosen, in whom my soul delights;

I have put my Spirit upon him;

he will bring forth justice to the nations.[/b]

6"I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness;

I will take you by the hand and keep you;

I will give you as a covenant for the people,

a light for the nations,[/b]

1But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob,

he who formed you, O Israel:

"Fear not, for I have redeemed you;

I have called you by name, you are mine.[/b]

1"But now hear, O Jacob my servant,

Israel whom I have chosen!

2Thus says the LORD who made you,

who formed you from the womb and will help you:

Fear not, O Jacob my servant,

Jeshurun whom I have chosen.[/b]

21Remember these things, O Jacob,

and Israel, for you are my servant;

I formed you; you are my servant;

O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

22 I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud

and your sins like mist;

return to me, for I have redeemed you.[/b]

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness

and the hoards in secret places,

that you may know that it is I, the LORD,

the God of Israel, who call you by your name.

4For the sake of my servant Jacob,

and Israel my chosen,

I call you by your name,

I name you, though you do not know me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other,

besides me there is no God;

I equip you, though you do not know me,[/b]

9 "For my name's sake I defer my anger,

for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,

that I may not cut you off.

10Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;

I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.

11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,

for how should my name be profaned?

My glory I will not give to another.

The LORD's Call to Israel

12"Listen to me, O Jacob,

and Israel, whom I called!

I am he; I am the first,

and I am the last.

13My hand laid the foundation of the earth,

and my right hand spread out the heavens;

when I call to them,

they stand forth together.[/b]

I know that's a lot to quote and say but all of that is from Isaiah 40-49 (particular portion I have been spending a lot of time in).

The point I'm emphasizing is that it is God who has chosen Israel and it was God who refined Israel. It was God who gave them the sacrifices and it was God who set Jeremiah apart even in the womb.

God has made Himself very clear in all of the prophets that:

26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.[/b]

God may so wish to overpower us at any moment He so desires and I can't say I know of an instance where He has. But I am very, very, very, very obstinate in that God has called out amongst a group of people to enjoy Him forever who rightfully deserve hell. And He has chosen then for His purpose and His glory and He has kept them and He has refined them and He has converted them and He has regenerated them and He has kept them and it was not because they made the more logical choice but because God had elected them to be His people and there was nothing they can do about it because Ephesians 1 is very clear that we were/are predestined for adoption before the foundation of the world and this is not in accordance to our works, nor deeds, nor choices, nor actions. Simply that we are the chosen people God has made chosen for us to enjoy Him forever.

This is the foundation for our eternal security and I will fight for the doctrines of grace because no other alternative is possible due to the character, nature and attributes of God.

_____

(Follow up post)

I'm aware that post is very one-sided. I found myself very frustrated and warm in the face during the end and after I posted it. Wanted to apologize for my arrogance and pride. I could have produced my closing statement(s) in a much better fashion yet I did not. But in all honesty, I will defend such doctrines the same way I will defend the infallibility of Scripture, the Trinity, Christ's resurrection, and other imperative truths.

The Doctrines of Grace are interwoven into the fabric of my being and I defend them with as much vigor as I would Scripture or my family. There's a reason I stopped debating this topic as a whole for a long time.

[Jarrax Volk]

There's only so far of the argument I'm willing to go. Particularly because this is a very dear doctrine to me and I tend to get ahead of myself or become too frustrated.

I think the biggest problem is that you're considering Molinism as plausible.

From CARM.org[/b]

The very first point they make is a fundamental misunderstanding of Molinism, as far as I know. I like CARM.org, but this is one place where they need to do their homework.

God placing people who will freely choose into the situations where they will freely choose is not showing partiality because the people He doesn't place into such a situation wouldn't freely choose to be saved in the first place. There's no partiality to be shown.

I'm not sure why the hard-core Molinist would even need to answer the question of what makes free will, free will.

Molinism absolutely affirms God's sovereignty and omniscience--middle knowledge does not mean that God is not omniscient. Again, a flawed understanding of Molinism.

As for Middle Knowledge and Depravity, I would introduce the Arminian Universal Prevenient Grace here.

God does not predestine individuals, but He can and does simultaneously know what their free will will choose because He has control over all of reality. He does not need to force someone to be saved--if they will freely choose it, He knows. Besides, if God were to really desire that all men be saved, then stay true to His nature in (Calvinistically) predestining them, one would think we would see no unbelievers whatsoever.

And not to be desperate but may I remind you that free will is only by nature a philosophical concept and has been widely debated since its inception.

The will is free in that it may freely choose that which is most pleasurable to it and the sovereignty of God.[/b]

There's no substantial evidence against free will, as far as I know--and therefore no reason not to take it seriously. Free will also means we can choose to go against God, not just to serve God. If all I have is a choice between two goods, neither of which I particularly desire . . . who cares?

I'd also like to make mention that not all covenants are conditional. God put Abram to sleep in order that the covenant may be unilateral.

Theoretically, all covenants flow from the everlasting covenant. And the everlasting covenant surely is unilateral, at least between God and man, God and Christ however may be a different story (see Covenant Theology).[/b]

If Abraham had not freely desired to do the will of God in the first place, God wouldn't have made a Covenant with him. As for Covenant Theology (i.e. Replacement Theology) . . . while good in theory, I've read (and can see why) some people name it as a cause of the Holocaust. Needless to say, I'm a Progressive Dispensationalist.

And in closing

This honestly is the exact opposite to everything Scripture says in relationship to Israel.

I know that's a lot to quote and say but all of that is from Isaiah 40-49 (particular portion I have been spending a lot of time in).[/b]

All of its true--but you're forgetting a few things: 1. In none of those quotes does God actively save Israel--He asks them to come back to Him. He isn't being tyrannical and forcing them to be saved. Even your own quotes say this:

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other,

besides me there is no God;

I equip you, though you do not know me,

"For my name's sake I defer my anger,

for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,

that I may not cut you off.

Why does God defer His anger? Because Israel has not yet turned back to Him (at the time of that writing) and He would be merciful, giving them several chances to repent.

But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob,

he who formed you, O Israel:

"Fear not, for I have redeemed you;

I have called you by name, you are mine.

"Redeemed" here means exactly that, but it does not take effect until we ask it. God does not save us unless we want Him to. At the time of this writing, Israel was still apostate. They did not want to be saved, they did not desire God, and God did not say: "You are saved, you must serve me". Was Israel His? Yes, just as any son or daughter belongs to the Father/Mother and just as any wife or husband belongs to each other. This does not mean Israel had no choice in the matter.

4 For the sake of my servant Jacob,

and Israel my chosen,

I call you by your name,

I name you, though you do not know me.

God is essentially saying: "Look, I love you, I've set you apart, I'm merciful to you, I've called you by name, you're mine by right of creation, and I still take care of you even though you don't think I do, even though you don't want to know me. Please come back to me."

It's not so much a declaration of salvation as it is a declaration of provision and a plea for salvation.

The point I'm emphasizing is that it is God who has chosen Israel and it was God who refined Israel. It was God who gave them the sacrifices and it was God who set Jeremiah apart even in the womb.

God has made Himself very clear in all of the prophets that:[/b]

Again, I believe you're making a fundamental mistake. You say "God will". I say "God will if we want Him to". Every promise to Israel you've mentioned depends on them returning to God first . . . THEN the blessings for such a relationship start to develop.

Does God choose Israel (a nation, not a specific individual)? Yes. Does God refine Israel after they choose to remain in Him? Yes. Does God give them the ability to be redeemed (through sacrifices)? Yes. Does God set people apart with a divine plan for their lives? Yes--but they only follow it if they want to.

God may so wish to overpower us at any moment He so desires and I can't say I know of an instance where He has. But I am very, very, very, very obstinate in that God has called out amongst a group of people to enjoy Him forever who rightfully deserve hell. And He has chosen then for His purpose and His glory and He has kept them and He has refined them and He has converted them and He has regenerated them and He has kept them and it was not because they made the more logical choice but because God had elected them to be His people and there was nothing they can do about it because Ephesians 1 is very clear that we were/are predestined for adoption before the foundation of the world and this is not in accordance to our works, nor deeds, nor choices, nor actions. Simply that we are the chosen people God has made chosen for us to enjoy Him forever.[/b]

Has God called a group of people? Yes--not individuals. He did so by saying: the people who choose to be in this group get this consequence, and the people who choose to be in that group get that consequence. Does He keep people who are saved? Yes, He says that nothing shall separate us from His love. He deliberately left the option to take ourselves out of our own salvation. Why? Because God values free service to maximize His glory. After all, a God who is freely worshiped is greater than a God who has to make people worship Him.

Ephesians 1 never mentions individual predestination. Not once. Every reference you see is to "we", "us", plural "you", "us", "us", "we", etc. Were certain groups of people predestined before the foundations of the world? Quite so, yes. We cannot save ourselves--God effects salvation in us, and God alone. God has, however, left it up to us to allow Him to effect such salvation. We have no part in it--we merely ask for and desire it or not.

I feel you're still making a fundamental exegetical mistake: not reading the entirety of Scripture as a unified whole. Every promise you've quoted is true, but in context they refer exclusively to benefits given AFTER a freely chosen salvation.

This is the foundation for our eternal security and I will fight for the doctrines of grace because no other alternative is possible due to the character, nature and attributes of God.[/b]

I believe I've shown (here and in other posts, which I will freely link to if asked) that Arminianism is the closest theological system to the nature of God, and Calvinism is not.

I'd like to continue this discussion, albeit very low key if you'd like.

[GodsLoveNeverFails]

Revelations 2:4 - Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

[Jakob]

I've become too irrationally frustrated to continue my Calvinistic debate.

[Defender]

Man, I used to think I knew what I was talking about till I read this thread. You all present such convincing arguments, but I think I'm gonna have to side with OSAS.

[Jarrax Volk]

Man, I used to think I knew what I was talking about till I read this thread. You all present such convincing arguments, but I think I'm gonna have to side with OSAS.[/b]

might I ask why?

[Defender]

might I ask why?[/b]

Well, like I said, I admit I don't know as much as I thought. But OSAS is the view I've held since childhood, and until I can do more research or am convinced otherwise by an irrefutable argument, it's just going to be what I continue to believe. Both sides presented powerful arguments, but not powerful enough to completely sway me away from what I believe. But it has made me question some things though. I am going to do some more research on the matter, so that I can make a more educated decision.

[Paper Towels]

Well, like I said, I admit I don't know as much as I thought. But OSAS is the view I've held since childhood, and until I can do more research or am convinced otherwise by an irrefutable argument, it's just going to be what I continue to believe. Both sides presented powerful arguments, but not powerful enough to completely sway me away from what I believe. But it has made me question some things though. I am going to do some more research on the matter, so that I can make a more educated decision.[/b]

Allow me to pose you a scenario. If I were to tell you that there was a man who was a Christian, and later on in his life this man ended up denying Christ, is that man still saved? The answer often given by proponents of OSAS is that this man was not a true believer to begin with, but here is the problem I see with this...

What about Peter?

Peter was not only one of the twelve but a part of Jesus' "inner circle" of three, being James, John, and Peter who were with Christ at the garden of Gethsemane on the night He was betrayed and at the transfiguration.

Peter as we know ended up denying Jesus three times, so by the OSAS logic Peter must have never been a true believer to begin with right? Something does not sound right about that to me.

Matthew 16: 15-17 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

John 6: 67-70 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

These sound like the words of a true believer to me...

[Defender]

Allow me to pose you a scenario. If I were to tell you that there was a man who was a Christian, and later on in his life this man ended up denying Christ, is that man still saved? The answer often given by proponents of OSAS is that this man was not a true believer to begin with, but here is the problem I see with this...

What about Peter?

Peter was not only one of the twelve but a part of Jesus' "inner circle" of three, being James, John, and Peter who were with Christ at the garden of Gethsemane on the night He was betrayed and at the transfiguration.

Peter as we know ended up denying Jesus three times, so by the OSAS logic Peter must have never been a true believer to begin with right? Something does not sound right about that to me.

Matthew 16: 15-17 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

John 6: 67-70 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

These sound like the words of a true believer to me...[/b]

I find your use of Peter's denial flawed. When Peter denied Christ, the Holy Spirit had not yet descended on the believers. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts us and leads us back to God when we go astray. It is the Holy Spirit that I believe secures our salvation, so your use of an event before the descent of the Holy Spirit, is irrelevant.

Ephesians 1:13-14 says, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionâ€â€to the praise of his glory." We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, It dwells within us, convicts us, and it is the Holy Spirit who guarantees our inheritance. Once the Holy Spirit dwells within us, I don't believe we can ever be separated from it.

And yes, I would say that any person who claims to be a Christian and then denies Christ was never a Christian to begin with. 1 john 3:9-10 says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." This makes it very clear that anyone who is of born again in God cannot continue sinning because God is in him. Anyone who partakes in ongoing and unrepentant sin and denies Christ through his actions is not of and never was of God.

Philippians 2:12-13 says, "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyedâ€â€not only in my presence, but now much more in my absenceâ€â€continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Though it may seem like we are doing the work in our salvation, it is really God doing the work, and we are just passively cooperating with him. If we are truly saved, then God will inevitably work to lead us back to a life consistent with one of His children.

Luke 15:4-7 says, "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." When a lost sheep is found, it seems to me that the sheep has very little choice as to whether or not it wants to return to the flock. The lost sheep is taken onto the Sheppard's shoulders and is carried back to the flock. The Sheppard didn't just give the sheep directions on how to get back or ask the sheep to follow him back, he picked him up and carried him back. It seems people think that God cannot and will not make a believer return because people have free will. And while I believe we have the free will to sin, I also believe any believer in whom the Holy Spirit dwells will be convicted of that sin or disbelief and will be brought back to a state of grace, regardless of free will. I think that if any person truly believes, God will always carry them back when they wander off, because He is in us and He will never let anything separate us from Him.

However, this is just my opinion, and I don't really want to debate about it.

[Jarrax Volk]

Defender, please don't take this as an attack on you, though it does critique some positions you hold. I've nothing against you, and I intend this post as more of an exegesis and exposition on various passages, not a broad-spectrum hellfire speech. It was not written angrily, or with the intent of sparking angry responses. I simply wished to respond, and it developed into something much longer than I originally had in mind.

1. Nowhere does Scripture say the Holy Spirit secures our salvation, as far as I know.

2. His use of Peter's example was correct because even under the Old Covenant, Peter would have been considered a believer.

3. Philippians 2:12-13 means exactly what it says, in context, when it states "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". We have parts to play in our salvation, and those are acceptance and maintenance.

Both Calvinists and Arminians believe in monergism (God alone can save). There seems to be a discrepancy on the Calvinist position here though, because although they believe in monergism, they also generally believe in synergism for sanctification (man cooperates with God for greater sanctification). When asking the questions "Who does the saving?" and "How are we saved?", we can begin to see a distinction between the two positions.

Arminians would answer those questions in this fashion: God does the saving. God saves through a synergistic cooperation with His people.

4. Since there are other passages which offer more insight to salvation instead of just Luke 15:4-7, it would seem to be incorrect to make a point on this single passage. I would go so far as to say that the primary focus of this passage is not on the role of the believer, but Christ. This focus on Christ does not detract from the responsibility of the person found elsewhere in Scripture.

5. Ephesians 1: 13-14 specifically refers to the group of believers at Ephesus. It says the Holy Spirit is a security deposit, not a guarantee. You know what happens if you make a security deposit and then fail to make the rest of your payments? You lose the deposit and the reward it held for you. Vs. 14 makes this abundantly clear: ". . . until the redemption of the purchased possession . . ." In other words, until you actually make it to the finish line of this earthly race, you are continually in danger of failing to redeem your deposit through your own choices and sinful nature (the tendency to choose sin).

1Co 9:24-27 KJV

(24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

(25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

(26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

(27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Here Paul lists his goal. Many people run in a race. Only the one who finishes receives the prize. Run so that you can receive the prize. In other words: many Christians are running this race called the Christian Life. Only the one who finishes their race when their time on earth is done, overcoming evil (in Revelation), and persisting to the end, will receive the prize. The deposit of the Spirit would then be like our entry fee into the Christian race. We strive for mastery, and therefore should be moderate in all things. We do this in order to obtain (because we have not yet obtained it) an incorruptible crown.

In verse 27, Paul says that he keeps his body's desires under control, under subjection to his will, so that he is not cast away (Gk. adokimos: not standing the test, not approved; that which does not prove itself such as it ought; unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate; this word is properly used of metals and coins, presumably for not standing the test of fire and tribulation in the furnace, therefore failing to emerge as a purified, acceptable product). Do you not see the parallels between metals, fire, failure, and our Christian life? John 15:1-8 expounds on this: the weeds (those who produce unacceptable results/fail to meet the standards are thrown into the fire to be burned. The same with any and all metal which does not stand the test of the forge, and the same with the Christian life: if we do not meet the standards which Jesus has enabled us to meet, through our own indifference, then we will necessarily suffer the consequences. We will simply not be worthy of the prize which God had wanted to bestow on us. The metallurgy example is interesting, because it can be taken so much farther than this, but for the sake of space, I won't go into it.

The purpose of Ephesians is to promote Church unity as a group--every chapter contains this focus. Rarely, if ever, does Paul speak of the individual believer in Ephesus. Every word he uses is plural: "we", "us", plural "you", etc. Therefore, in context with this purpose, every reference to predestination is to be taken in a group context--not in an individual sense.

6. As for 1 John 3:9-10:

This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a “portion†of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous.[/b]

Here we see an elementary logic: by necessity this passage refers to all believers. Therefore, unless all believers are completely, absolutely perfect all of time, this passage does not refer to a literal "never committing a sin". Since it cannot refer to this (and since no rational being can uphold that interpretation), it must refer to not habitually sinning. Likewise, the process of sanctification this verse refers to is not absolute while we are alive--if it were, then we could be perfect in this life, which is self-evidently false.

Can believers sin and become unsaved? Yes, though it is also possible that such were never saved. My point here is that one who is saved can, through sin, voluntarily give up his salvation.

Heb 2:3 KJV

(3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Hebrews 2:3 references the word amaleo for "neglect". It means "to not maintain". In other words, if we fail to maintain our salvation (in accordance with Paul's teachings above), we will not escape the wrath of God mention in vv. 1-2.

Heb 3:12-19 KJV

(12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

(13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

(14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

(15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

(16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

(17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

(18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

(19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Vs. 12 here does not say the evil heart was always in a person, otherwise the author (presumably Paul) would not have called them "brethren". Vs. 13 says to exhort one another daily to keep from being hardened through sin (if they are striving to keep from being hardened, they must be soft to start with--in other words, they are not habitually living in sin and are righteous people). Vs. 14 says we are made partakers of Christ (His sacrifice and His gift) IF we hold the "beginning of our confidence (the Spirit's security deposit) steadfast unto the end (finishing the race--as in the earlier example). Vs. 16 starts a warning, an example from the Old Testament: Most Israelites, when they had heard God (i.e. heard, followed, and been saved), did provoke God (started to sin). Vs. 17: Who was God grieved with for forty years? Those who sinned and had not repented. Vs. 18: To whom did God swear that they would not enter His rest? Those who had started to believe, but ended up believing not (i.e. through unrepented sin). Vs. 19: They could not enter into their promised land because of unbelief, a failure on their part, giving in to sin and not repenting of it. God had promised them the land--He didn't take away their salvation. THEY took away their own salvation.

^^This is also why L's use of the example of Peter is completely legitimate, since Paul does the same thing here by using an example of the Israelites, and for the same purpose.

Heb 4:1-3 KJV

(1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

(2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

(3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Here, Paul again references a warning: fear falling short of the promise to enter into rest. He says that the Gospel did not help those who did not believe, and further down the chapter, he clinches his warning with this:

Heb 4:11 KJV

(11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Sounds familiar to "let us run the race . . . " doesn't it? Paul affirms the existence of two kinds of sinners: those who never believed and those who once believed. He further affirms that it is very possible for a believer to become a sinner who once believed, to fall, and to subsequently lose his salvation in apostasy (after all, why would he warn about falling if it were not possible?).

Heb 6:4-6 KJV

(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 6 continues this thought by declaring the very real possibility of apostasy (a position where it is impossible to come back to salvation, because of persistent, unrepented of sin--a point which only God knows).

Paul does not wish this to happen, so he again warns his readers:

Heb 6:11-12 KJV

(11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

(12) That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Barring unrepented of sin, if we should die then we are assured to go to heaven at that time. That assurance does not carry over to never losing our salvation. Paul's exhortations to show diligence, to not be slothful, to follow in the footsteps of those who eventually inherited promises through faith and patience (once again, using Old Testament examples).

Our anchor is God, His promise is sure, steadfast and immutable. He will not move His salvation. It is up to us not to move it, and to stay close to God (Heb. 6:17-19).

Revelation 2-3 contains numerous warnings to the seven churches to be overcomers--references to finishing the race, fighting the good fight, keeping the faith.

2Ti 4:6-8 KJV

(6) For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

(7) I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

(8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

What is sin? Primarily, disobeying God. What are the consequences of sin? Romans 3:23 says the wages of sin (or due payment for services rendered) is death--both spiritual and physical. Now, when we choose to disregard God and sin, since we can choose to be saved in the first place, we can voluntarily choose to die in that sin (i.e. through a choice not to repent). God, having given us free will, will allow us to do so, though it would grieve Him. Since the wages of sin are death, and since it is possible, from Paul's example (and others in Scripture) to not obtain our lasting salvation, I must conclude that it is possible to sin, consequently (and immediately) die, and without repentance, to lapse into apostasy and perish forever. All of it is our own fault.

----

This is why I believe the doctrines of Free Grace and Perseverance of the Saints are so deadly (note that I do believe in assurance of salvation, but that it is separate from those two doctrines): they water down, through an illogical and flawed interpretive method, vital warnings, obscuring and/or concealing the fact that it is possible to of our own free will, deliberately sin, not repent, and so be lost. Do you have any idea how dangerous it is (for teachers and students both) to let people think that they can do anything and still be saved--or similarly, to say that you can never be unsaved, even if you wish to be? This is entirely antithetical to the nature of God, free will, and both the nature and design of humanity.

What sort of assurance of salvation is that, if you can't even know when you're really saved (i.e., if you end up in hell, you were never saved to start with)? A true assurance of salvation only happens when you know there are definite consequences for the opposite, when there are rules defining what is and is not salvation. What sort of God does Calvinism create, when said God creates everyone, but only puts a few in salvation, deliberately, voluntarily leaving the others to suffer an eternity in Hell? This is not the God of Scripture.

I have nothing against you or anyone else personally, but I very much disagree with Calvinist theology, as you can tell.

EDIT: I should add that any Reformed argument addressing free will as the basis for Arminian thought is sorely in error.

Within Reformed theology, common grace is given to all with the goal of sustaining the good, but never with salvation in mind. Only effectual grace has the goal of justification in view. Hence, within Reformed theology there are differing kinds of grace. As such, to the Arminian mind, the Reformed apologist must make a case from the Bible that differing kinds of grace do indeed abound and the Arminian apologist needs to set forth that there is but one kind of grace that operates within differing modes.

----

Within Arminian thought, there is only one kind of grace which is said to go before, or, operate ahead of, (hence the term "prevenient") that enables all good and righteous acts and thoughts, thereby providing to our Lord all the glory of such acts and thoughtsâ€â€for it is His doing. Ultimately within Arminians thought, prevenient grace has the goal of sanctification but its more immediate goal is justification and these two different goals can be thought of as simply modes of operation by the same kind of grace that always goes before encouraging and enabling. Within the Arminian system of thought, prevenient grace is said to be offered to all. In this sense prevenient grace is irresistible because the offer of grace to all cannot be denied. Nevertheless because prevenient grace has justification and sanctification in view and not all are justified and neither is sanctification ever complete or perfect even for the most holiest of saints, prevenient grace is also said to be resistible in both its justification and sanctification modes of operation. Positively, in acceptance, prevenient grace is said to be passive and negatively, in rejection, the heart is said to be activeâ€â€a volitional stand against God and the willful suppression of truth (cf. Paul's argument in Romans 1*). Consequently, arguments against prevenient grace that hold as a premise that the human will as the basis of salvation, are simply in errorâ€â€although they are very common. So common that I'll state it again: arguments against freewill are not addressing Arminian theology. The only people who give a hoot about freewill are under-informed lay persons, philosophers, and Calvinist apologists who believe they are addressing Arminian soteriology in a meaningful way when they talk about free will but are, in fact, not addressing Arminian soteriology because Arminian soteriology is based upon how grace is thought to work and not how the human will is thought to work.[/b]

[Defender]

Defender, please don't take this as an attack on you, though it does critique some positions you hold. I've nothing against you, and I intend this post as more of an exegesis and exposition on various passages, not a broad-spectrum hellfire speech. It was not written angrily, or with the intent of sparking angry responses.[/b]

No, I respect your opinion and take no offense at your post. Actually, I should probably apologize. I am an extremely hyperactive person. At times it's a blessing, but it's also a curse, because along with that hyperactivity, is severe impulsiveness. I have the tendency to do and say things (or in this case type) without thinking about them at all. I do and say stupid things and it often gets me into trouble. It is the main reason that I try to avoid debating. I get hotheaded :VERYMAD: and type impulsively. When I wrote that post, I had just downed a large cup of coffee and three shots of espresso. I was not thinking straight, and just wrote whatever came into my head, whether it made sense or not. From my caffeine induced state, I barely even remember what I wrote. When I reread my post this morning, I felt so stupid that I nearly cried, mostly because believe it or not, I even said some things that I would normally disagree with.

So without trying to refute anything you said, I repeat what I said before. I am going to do more research, so I can make an educated decision. Until then I will try to refrain from impulsively posting.