The church is full of hypocrites

[DDOG059]

My dad was kept out of the church (the building and the community) for several years because of the quote "Hypocrites" in the church. Now I don't disagree that there are hypocrites in the church, nor do I disagree that they were the reason for his not going to church. However I believe that he was thinking about it wrong.

Even the newcomers in the church, one of the first things you'll here about is the liers and the hypocrites in the church and to not be one. after all Jesus taught specifically of the subject of hypocrites in referring to the Pharisees. (Matt 6)

but I would suggest that he couldn't go to church because he couldn't be one: and you technically have to become a hypocrite when you first get saved.

I know that sounds really ridiculous, but consider this for a second. When you get saved through Christ's death He says that you are:

"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.

In your sin before Christ you are: sick, disgusting, dirty, dead, and lustful. (Scarlet) but through Christ you are made clean (White as snow) Instantly; if you died the second after you accepted Christ into your heart you would go to heaven, and not be held accountable for your sins. as the man did at Christ's execution. (Luke 23:42-43)

But suppose you didn't die... What if a drunker went to a bar every weekend for a year. and then he got saved, and went to the same bar, and the bartender who knew him asked if he wanted his usual. and the man said: "No thanks I don't drink"

Wouldn't he be a hypocrite in the bartenders eyes? and yet the man committed no sin, spoke no lie, and had a clean conscience. As Jesus said (Matt 13:57)

So I say: You have to be a hypocrite (In man's eyes) to go to church, or to get saved.

Does anyone disagree? If you do please site scriptural evidence for your disagreement.

P.S. Take close note that I am not defending hypocrites, the Pharisees were at fault. and the hypocrites I'm talking about were hypocrites as seen in man's eyes not God's eyes.

[JoshuaPopper]

I disagree. I think that most churches are filled with fairly sincere people trying to make do in life the best they can. However, there are some weirdo's around the place as well like people who enjoy a few drinks (by the by, what on earth's wrong with that?) and then claim not to.

[blackswan41]

My dad was kept out of the church (the building and the community) for several years because of the quote "Hypocrites" in the church. Now I don't disagree that there are hypocrites in the church, nor do I disagree that they were the reason for his not going to church. However I believe that he was thinking about it wrong.

Im a bit confused. Did he stop going to church because he judged them as being hypocrites or was he asked to leave after being judged as one? Either way, it's incorrect. We're all hypocrites in some way or another to some degree or another as we're all sinners. They key is are we trying to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance in repenting and reforming our lives? Or are we using another's hypocrisy as an excuse to not attend church or be aligned with other christians. The more I finger point other christians for their not meeting up to my expectations, the lonelier and unholier I become. That's why Im glad Im just in sales and God's in management

Hypocrisy is the act of persistently pretending to hold beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually hold. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie.

[Zabby]

Umm, I don't get your argument in the slightest. The man at the bar would be more likely to say "No, I don't drink anymore." and that wouldn't be hypocritical. Actually, it would be better if he simply stopped going to said bar because going to it will probably lead him into sin.

And still going on with the man at the bar analogy, it's not as if he's saying to the guy next to him "Oh, you shouldn't drink." and then takes a shot himself. That would be hypocritical. If he practices what he preaches, he's not being hypocritical.

[DDOG059]

I disagree. I think that most churches are filled with fairly sincere people trying to make do in life the best they can. However, there are some weirdo's around the place as well like people who enjoy a few drinks (by the by, what on earth's wrong with that?) and then claim not to.

I agree with everything you said after: "I disagree." Leading to the question, why do you disagree? The man in the story didn't: "claim not to" He just said he doesn't drink, he never said that he didn't drink.

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Im a bit confused. Did he stop going to church because he judged them as being hypocrites or was he asked to leave after being judged as one?

The former is correct.

Either way, it's incorrect. We're all hypocrites in some way or another to some degree or another as we're all sinners.

Those two statements seem to be in conflict could you explain?

They key is are we trying to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance in repenting and reforming our lives? Or are we using another's hypocrisy as an excuse to not attend church or be aligned with other christians. The more I finger point other christians for their not meeting up to my expectations, the lonelier and unholier I become.

I completely agree! Read the "P.S." at the bottom to see how that's possible.

Hypocrisy is the act of persistently pretending to hold beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually hold. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie.

I agree. which is why a newly saved Christian would look like a hypocrite in others eye's. In the story he's holding the belief that he's no longer a drunker. (A belief which is false in the eye's of the bartender/man)

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Umm, I don't get your argument in the slightest.

I'm sorry, ether my idea is truly ridiculous, or I presented it really badly. :/

The man at the bar would be more likely to say "No, I don't drink anymore." and that wouldn't be hypocritical. Actually, it would be better if he simply stopped going to said bar because going to it will probably lead him into sin.

Oh yeah, definitely! What do you expect, it was the best I could come up with on a moments notice. but you could say that about the parable of the sower: (Luke 8:5-8) What in the world is a person who spent money to buy seed throwing it away randomly, you think he would have at least ask someone where to put the seed.

And still going on with the man at the bar analogy, it's not as if he's saying to the guy next to him "Oh, you shouldn't drink." and then takes a shot himself. That would be hypocritical. If he practices what he preaches, he's not being hypocritical.

but this is only a week after he got saved, and he just quit drinking, so technically he is practicing what he's preaching, but people who have struggled with such things knows he's probably lying. Nevertheless you are correct, and I agree.

P.S. comments are still completely welcome!

[randomdisplayname]

Sorry to be curt but,

of course there are hypocrites in the church, we're human.

[JoshuaPopper]

Hypocrites are insincere people who use their insincerity to manipulate others. I honestly don't think that people who go to church these days are generally interested in that. I think some are interested in keeping up appearances, some are interested in socialising, others might be interested in spirituality. Though, I do not think that these are mutually exclusive motivations.

[DDOG059]

Definition:

Hypocrite = A person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

The bible says that everyone has sinned (Rom 3:23) Our heart is deceitful (Jer 17:9) Our tongue is deadly poison (Jam 3:8) and our thoughts evil.

and yet, Jesus said that through Him we are made: Holy, Purified, Chosen, Children of God. (1Pe 1:15,16)(1John 1:9)(2Thes 2:13)(1John 3:1-3)

Not only does it say we're clean, but it says that we're supposed to act Clean: (1Cr 6:19)(Gal 5:16,22-23)

Now a Hypocrite in it's simplest definition is an: Actor. The bible states that you are: Bad, but it also says that (after you accept Jesus) you should act good, (and be Good). Now according to God, and Jesus; if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9) Free from all iniquity, the Ultimate sacrifice, you can not be held accountable for your sins.

and that's great! Praise God, and that's how God sees you; as Forgiven.

But no one else is going to see you that way, They're not going to know your heart, nor see your eternal state. In everyone else's eye's you haven't changed: You haven't stopped sinning (everyone who's been saved knows that the path of salvation is a long one), the only thing that's changed is that you say that you're Righteous, and purified: as the bible states.

So in their eye's your a hypocrite, an actor, a lier.

[Bergkamp]

I think, you shouldn't be so mindful much about you're a hypocrite in man's eyes or not because we will all stand before God’s judgment seat (Romans 14:10).

you technically have to become a hypocrite when you first get saved.

If you decided not to do the same sins you've done again, it's just a fight with your own desire. It will be hypocritical if you do it secretly. And, I think, if you think you're a hypocrite and you feel guilty, you should definitely go to church. It's not an excuse that you're a hypocrite then you don't go to church. No one is perfect and church apparently for who wants to be out of his/her sins. Like in Hebrews 3:13 "But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. "

You need yo go to church is you're really christian. You need to learn to love others who are you spiritual family."By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another"(John 13:35). You need others to show that you're in the Christ's body. "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular (1 Corinthians 12:27)"

Finally, you might know John 3:16 but you may not know 1 John 3:16 "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. "

God bless and I hope you'll be in church soon.

[Zabby]

I disagree with you, but this comes down to our different views of justification at all... Although I won't get into that because if we discuss justification, we could be at it for a very long time.

What I'm going to say is it that if you're genuine, open, and honest about your belief in Christ, that openness and genuineness will bleed over to your life and your actions and people will not consider you a hypocrite. If you truly turn your life over to Christ, you will be transformed and not be a hypocrite. Will you mess up? Of course, but messing up once or twice does not make someone a hypocrite. It merely makes them human.

[colinisreptar]

I disagree with you, but this comes down to our different views of justification at all... Although I won't get into that because if we discuss justification, we could be at it for a very long time.

You're all about justification these days ;D

[Zabby]

You're all about justification these days ;D

What can I say? I'm overjoyed to finally understand the concept, and it really is the source of the splitting between Catholics and Protestants (as I'm sure you know because it's the reason you're not Catholic )

[SaintPeter]

tl:dr but putting my two cents in, you will have hypocrites in every culture, group, community, clique, religion and so forth

[DDOG059]

Hypocrites are insincere people who use their insincerity to manipulate others. I honestly don't think that people who go to church these days are generally interested in that. I think some are interested in keeping up appearances, some are interested in socialising, others might be interested in spirituality. Though, I do not think that these are mutually exclusive motivations.

I disagree with you, but this comes down to our different views of justification at all... Although I won't get into that because if we discuss justification, we could be at it for a very long time.

What I'm going to say is it that if you're genuine, open, and honest about your belief in Christ, that openness and genuineness will bleed over to your life and your actions and people will not consider you a hypocrite. If you truly turn your life over to Christ, you will be transformed and not be a hypocrite. Will you mess up? Of course, but messing up once or twice does not make someone a hypocrite. It merely makes them human.

So far no one's given me any reason, evidence, or scriptural proof, for why they dis agree, simply that they do. because they "think", because of what they "believe" (which aren't that different, if you look up definition) and that's fine. If what you believe, cannot agree with this idea, Oh well.

I suppose for the sake of conversation, I just have one more thing to say regarding this: Doctrine essentially is: What you believe and why. The doctrine of a Christian is found in the written scripture; the bible. I've Shown a contradiction (or compliment depending on how you look at it) in the bible. I'm suggesting how the two could compliment each other and produce a 3rd idea. and you've shown that your doctrine disagrees with the 3rd idea, but you've only shown me 'what' you believe, to try and disagree with what and why I believe. There's something missing, the: "why" on your side. I believe if you can present this (in terms I can understand) then you'll have the ability to correct the idea presented. Wasn't it Paul who said: "holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict." (Ti 1:9)

I'm contradicting your doctrine, (at least a piece of it) or am I complimenting it..? Ether way, isn't Paul saying it's your duty to find out one way or the other, and ether convict or exhort me? I'm not speaking a different language, to which you cannot argue, nor holding a different doctrine: If you're posting on this board you hold the same doctrine that I do.

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I think, you shouldn't be so mindful much about you're a hypocrite in man's eyes or not because we will all stand before God’s judgment seat (Romans 14:10).

you technically have to become a hypocrite when you first get saved.

If you decided not to do the same sins you've done again, it's just a fight with your own desire. It will be hypocritical if you do it secretly. And, I think, if you think you're a hypocrite and you feel guilty, you should definitely go to church. It's not an excuse that you're a hypocrite then you don't go to church. No one is perfect and church apparently for who wants to be out of his/her sins. Like in Hebrews 3:13 "But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. "

You need yo go to church is you're really christian. You need to learn to love others who are you spiritual family."By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another"(John 13:35). You need others to show that you're in the Christ's body. "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular (1 Corinthians 12:27)"

Finally, you might know John 3:16 but you may not know 1 John 3:16 "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. "

God bless and I hope you'll be in church soon.

Thank-you for posting that! It's quite helpful. and God-bless you as-well!

What can I say? I'm overjoyed to finally understand the concept, and it really is the source of the splitting between Catholics and Protestants (as I'm sure you know because it's the reason you're not Catholic )

Now I'm interested! However from the way you presented it, it sounds like a large topic, and a topic in and of itself, so I wonder if you could direct me to a thread or link that you found most helpful? or simply PM, me! You were the only one that wished me happy birthday (not surprising) so I'm figuring you know how to do that. (Thank you btw!! )

[Basketball42]

I disagree; for the fact that all people sin and fall short of the glory of God, even church people. Although it may seem more common to see non believers sin, it is just as common for Christians to sin. Just because churchgoers sin, just like everybody, does not make them hypocrites.

[DDOG059]

I disagree; for the fact that all people sin and fall short of the glory of God, even church people. Although it may seem more common to see non believers sin, it is just as common for Christians to sin. Just because churchgoers sin, just like everybody, does not make them hypocrites.

It's not the fact that they're sinning, it's the fact that they're claiming to be righteous, in spite of their past sins that make them hypocritical, to the world.

[Chris-M]

Wouldn't he be a hypocrite in the bartenders eyes? and yet the man committed no sin, spoke no lie, and had a clean conscience. As Jesus said (Matt 13:57)

So I say: You have to be a hypocrite (In man's eyes) to go to church, or to get saved.

To repent is to clean guilt, which is to transcend hypocrisy. Hypocrisy in the eyes of man is no hypocrisy at all.

[DDOG059]

To repent is to clean guilt, which is to transcend hypocrisy. Hypocrisy in the eyes of man is no hypocrisy at all.

To repent alone, doesn't clean anything, nor transcend. The only way You can do ether is through Christ Jesus, But to transcend means: to go beyond the limits of thought. In other words no one but you or God would be able to understand such things. Therefore you would still be seen as a hypocrite.

and as to the second bit, That's great! So someone's Walking up to you and they say: "you're a lier, and a hypocrite!" and you say: "What you think doesn't matter". Good luck with that!

[turtle1609]

I'm not really good at English, but I'll share my opinion.

Hyprocrite = a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives - WordNet ® 3.0 (2006) [wn]

Which means,

- If I am really addicted and say "I don't drink!" then I'm hypocrite because I conceal my real need and addiction.

- But if I really don't want to drink and say "I don't drink!" then I'm not hypocrite because whatever others think, I honestly don't conceal anything anyway.

And since the concept of Spiritual Change (including Luke 23:42-43 and everywhere in Bible) is to change from your inside (self,hope,thought,etc) to the outside (behavior), so Christian is NOT hypocrite.

Hope that helps.