Feminism

[Ananas]

[. . .]remember that females were made to help the males. 

*uses line*

 

*impaled with pitchfork*

[Jesusismyticket]

While I believe above is somewhat true, I think that for one, Men tend to abuse this power. I mean, if I hear another 'Go make me a sandwich' joke I may slap someone. Hard.

Plus, I think that although Woman was made to help man, God did not intend woman to be dominated wrongfully. Let us not forget many woman in the Bible held higher missions, and woman saints? I believe the greatest example of this is Joan of Arc. She performed a consdered manly duty as a woman, and did it quite well. But, I do not think feminist should insult those who choose to be stay at home mother's (do NOT say it does not happen, my mother gets it a lot sadly). It is the PERSON'S choice.

[Ananas]

A big problem, however, is that not all women want to live that life, and men hold a privileged position in the society, women are spurned for rejecting the traditional role, paid less, and for no reason other than their sex lack opportunities that are available to men for no reason other than their sex.

This is still a problem today and perpetuating it for religious reasons is quite simply wrong.

[TheLord'sBeloved777]

*uses line*

 

*impaled with pitchfork*

 I'm quoting the Word here.... We kind of like are....  Trust me, I didn't like it as well. 

[TheLord'sBeloved777]

While I believe above is somewhat true, I think that for one, Men tend to abuse this power. I mean, if I hear another 'Go make me a sandwich' joke I may slap someone. Hard. 

Plus, I think that although Woman was made to help man, God did not intend woman to be dominated wrongfully. Let us not forget many woman in the Bible held higher missions, and woman saints? I believe the greatest example of this is Joan of Arc. She performed a considered manly duty as a woman, and did it quite well. But, I do not think feminist should insult those who choose to be stay at home mother's (do NOT say it does not happen, my mother gets it a lot sadly). It is the PERSON'S choice.

Firstly men who abuse their power is a whole different story. The Lord will deal with them when the time comes, but until then it clearly states in the bible in Romans 12:19 (Amplified): "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave the way open for [God's] wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay (requite), says the Lord. 

Secondly is there no saints in my Bible. I don't know what type of christian you are but there is literally no story about a Joan of Arc in the Bible. Yet if you want to think about a women talked about in the bible I'll take you back to Esther. When she was QUEEN she had to fall on her KNEES in order to beg her HUSBAND not to kill the Jews. Isn't that a humbling submissive act where she was a help meet? Firstly for her husband, so that he won't be known as the king who killed all those innocent men. Secondly for her uncle Mordegai so that he won't lose his life. And thirdly for all the Jews, who now could enjoy their lives over there, and who also didn't lose their lives. Great act done by an impeccable woman used by God, but do you think the Jews would've been set free from their death sentence if she didn't submit under God's greater plan for her life? I don't think it's acceptable for them to make feminist remarks towards your mom though. 

[Ananas]

 I'm quoting the Word here.... We kind of like are....  Trust me, I didn't like it as well. 

If the Bible encourages the systematic debasement of one group of people for the benefit of another, then you're reading it wrong. For centuries people have used various verses to promote their hate, bigotry, racism, and violence; just because verses can be presented as support doesn't make the position right or moral.

 

Now there may be societal structures present in historical (and modern) times where certain roles in marriage were normal, and they may even be beneficial (note that I'm not necessarily advocating we abandon all such roles entirely). But if such a structure promotes imposing one individual's will upon another's, or when such a structure is founded on the belief that one sex is intrinsically superior to the other, then this system is not good and beneficial, it is simply immoral and not worth preserving.

 

Now I don't claim to have the answer for all the complex interactions of all the variants of relations between sexes, but I can confidently say that it is wrong when women are not allowed to hold positions of authority because they must be "submissive"; it is wrong when women must ask permission before they may act; and it is wrong any time that one person views another as existing for his benefit.

It absolutely astounds me that these ideas have so embedded themselves in such a large portion of Christianity.

 

 

(Also, I should add that not all of this isn't necessarily against what you said, but I think it makes the argument more coherent to consider the issue as a whole and in relation to problems that others perpetuate. I realize there are several of these things you explicitly rejected, but since they stem from the same source, it is important to consider them together. )

[TheLord'sBeloved777]

A big problem, however, is that not all women want to live that life, and men hold a privileged position in the society, women are spurned for rejecting the traditional role, paid less, and for no reason other than their sex lack opportunities that are available to men for no reason other than their sex.

This is still a problem today and perpetuating it for religious reasons is quite simply wrong.

Firstly, they don't want to live that life? Do you think Jesus wanted to die on the cross for us? Why on earth would he ask his Father to spare him the cup that he was to take? He didn't want to. Did that mean he didn't do it? No. Sometimes we have to do the stuff that we don't want to do in order for the bigger picture to work out.  And yes they have a privileged position and yes, just because we help them doesn't it mean that they are superiority, but that's the Lord's business. And revenge and justice is his to give. Read Romans 12:19 that I quoted on a reply. Then lastly we need to do everything we do for the Lord. If the Lord says women should be a man's help meet, well then women should be men's help meet. It might be hard to allow a man to get more opportunities than women, but perhaps that is so that us women can be better help meets. And if it is so then it's most probably there for a reason. We should come with humbling serving hearts. In James 4:6 it states : "But he gives us more and more grace (power of the Holy Spirit, to meet this evil tendency and all others fully). That is why He says, God sets Himself against the proud and haughty, but gives grace [continually] to the lowly (those who are humble enough to receive it.)"

Don't you think it's easier to help out when you have the humble heart the Lord wants you to have? Don't you think that women would would "want" to help out if they humble themselves just like the Lord want's them too?

[Ananas]

This really has nothing to do with either humility or service... the problem is social constructs that promote preferential treatment of men, denying women complete status and opportunities as equals; anything that fails to address these issues is merely a red herring.

 

While it is convenient to accept the status-quo as God's desire we must quickly become concerned if what is being paraded-about as "God's plan" results in the mistreatment of others. It should not surprise anyone that those favored by a system will seek to retain that which they benefit from; we should therefore not be surprised that when questioned they would use divine authority as justification.

But again I come back to this: treating others poorly is bad, if people say they do it because God wants them to, why should they be believed? Even further, when a system is justified as an opportunity for the oppressed to show moral character by being "humble" or "gracious" it should be obvious that the objective is not the pursuit of morality, but continued injustice.

 

Unfortunately, this has wandered a ways from more concrete objectives of feminism into a bit of a tangent, so I'll quickly recall that the problem is the view that the female is inferior to the male (such that she is to be "his helper"), rather than being fully equal (although not necessarily the same) and inherently under the authority of the other sex.

[TheLord'sBeloved777]

If the Bible encourages the systematic debasement of one group of people for the benefit of another, then you're reading it wrong. For centuries people have used various verses to promote their hate, bigotry, racism, and violence; just because verses can be presented as support doesn't make the position right or moral.

 

Now there may be societal structures present in historical (and modern) times where certain roles in marriage were normal, and they may even be beneficial (note that I'm not necessarily advocating we abandon all such roles entirely). But if such a structure promotes imposing one individual's will upon another's, or when such a structure is founded on the belief that one sex is intrinsically superior to the other, then this system is not good and beneficial, it is simply immoral and not worth preserving.

 

Now I don't claim to have the answer for all the complex interactions of all the variants of relations between sexes, but I can confidently say that it is wrong when women are not allowed to hold positions of authority because they must be "submissive"; it is wrong when women must ask permission before they may act; and it is wrong any time that one person views another as existing for his benefit.

It absolutely astounds me that these ideas have so embedded themselves in such a large portion of Christianity.

 

 

(Also, I should add that not all of this isn't necessarily against what you said, but I think it makes the argument more coherent to consider the issue as a whole and in relation to problems that others perpetuate. I realize there are several of these things you explicitly rejected, but since they stem from the same source, it is important to consider them together. )

Yeah I couldn't agree with you more. The Word surely doesn't want to rat some other people out so that the another group of people can be happier than others. I mean the Lord loves ALL of us and he died for all of us. When that prostitute came to him, he told the men that the one without sin should firstly pic up a stone to kill her. So the Lord stood up for her. Now I know I said women should be the help meet and submit under their husband's authority, and I still stand with it. I just need to clarify something. Being a help meet doesn't mean in anyway that you are inferior to any man. When Jesus came down to Earth he actually humbled himself so much to even wash his disciples old stinky feet. Yet he is the most superior person I know, and he always will be. 

Then secondly about the verse thing. I believe that when you receive the Lord you also receive the Holy Spirit and he will point out which bible verses to use and which not to use. Because the Word is the only book to which we accordingly. Then secondly I have to agree. It is wrong to see men as more superior than women, and it is not living out of love. But then I quote again Romans 12:19. We can't want to take justice in our hands and become strong feminists so that that can stop. Our God is a God of order. He created women to be submissive and a help meet (not inferior though no).  That's his order. He is compassionate though. In the end as Christians our motivation behind everything should be love. Do you think you are acting out of love towards men when you are a feminist? 

And then on another point on how women may or may not hold authority positions just because they are women.I actually agree with that. But we all have someone to submit under. A child under a parent. A teacher under a headmaster. The worker under his boss. It's just that women are also suppose to submit under their husbands. In songs of Solomon we learn about the lady who had to work in the fields because she was said to do so by her brothers-in-law. Yet if she didn't do it, she never would've met her beloved. So my thing is this. We need to live life according to the will of God. It may seem unfair. It may seem not out of love. But in the end we should all know about Romans 8:8, that the Lord will make all things work out for those who love him. Then there wont be any unfairness. And men won't see themselves superior just because women should submit under them.

But I don't want to encourage women to live with the pain that some men may give them. Pray. The Lord are always willing to listen.

[Cato]

I'll just leave this here.

[Chris-M]

I'll just leave this here.

 

See, this wouldn't be a problem if y'all would just agree to criminalize sex.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Chris-M