Israel

[Telesphore]

Israel has a special place in the heart of many conservative American Christians, almost as much as it does in the heart of American Jewry. Support for Israel is one of the few things the Dems and the GOP almost always agree on; and the debut before the Republican Jewish Coalition is always a watermark event in the Republican primaries. So where does CTF stand on Israel? Do you see any eschatological connection between Israel's establishment and the end times?

[PlasmaHam]

I have always been in support of Israel personally. It is a sovereign nation set aside for a persecuted people, anyone that admires freedom and liberty should support them. The Jews should be able to enjoy their national right and not have to stand by and let the Muslim powers slice into it anymore. 

 

Even though the Jews have refused to accept the messiah, I do believe God still has them in a special place. Israel will especially be important in the end times, and perhaps being the instigators of it. A popular theory says that the tribulation will begin with the destruction of the Dome of the rock by Israeli forces for the construction of the Third Temple. That in turn will trigger massive retaliation by Muslim nations, and thus WWIII will begin. That of course is a theory but it is intriguing. There are other, more Biblical connections to the end times as well, that I won't go into.

 

Also, strategically, Israel is the only strong ally the US has in the region. Every other country there hates the West or is in great social turmoil. It is likely the most protected country in the world in terms of missile defense and has one of the most powerful armies in the world. It would be good to have them on your side.

 

The Israeli Military is also just plain awesome! How many countries have curbstomped three of their biggest enemies and tripled their territory in less than a week?! What country has saved 100 hostages from a tyrannical dictator within a week of their capture, only losing 3 people?! How many countries have fought off multiple superior powers within a year of its inception and won?! Israel! that's who!

 

This is my grandpa's opinion of Israel

 

 "If some terrorist shoots his rifle at America, the government will try to sign a peace treaty with him. If he shoots his rifle at Israel, the Israeli government would go full-on Reagan and send a F-15 through his front door! Israel is basically Reagan-era America, and that is good"

Edited June 2, 2016 by PlasmaHam

[Nicene Nerd]

I think Israel still matters theologically ("the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable"), though I think the dispensationalist conception of their end times role (such as what PlamaHam posted) is entirely wrong and unbiblical. I do believe that in some sense "all Israel will be saved" before all is said and done.

As to Israel as a nation-state in relation to US foreign policy, I feel like we should just stay buddies, but neither enable nor coerce them in their relationship to other peoples of the Middle East. The Palenstinian question is more difficult and I do not believe I know enough to offer an opinion.

[Telesphore]

I think Israel still matters theologically ("the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable")

 

Could you expand on this? Are you a supporter of dual-covenant theology?

[Cato]

Don't care, but definitely don't want tax dollars spent on their behalf.

[curryjacket]

Israel is a burden to the U.S.

Mostly, though, I agree with Cato. *shrug*

[PlasmaHam]

Don't care, but definitely don't want tax dollars spent on their behalf.

Less than 10% of US foreign aid goes to Israel. And of the top ten gainers of US foreign aid, Israel is the only one that actually helps us. It is the only stronghold of democracy in the region. If Israel didn't exist, the Middle East would certainly become a much bigger problem than it is now. Human rights will be trampled and there will be attempts to expand outwards since they have no longer have an enemy in their midst.

 

I'll rather spend money on an ally than an enemy, but unfortunately the money is flowing the other way.

Edited June 2, 2016 by PlasmaHam

[Cato]

Less than 10% of US foreign aid goes to Israel. And of the top ten gainers of US foreign aid, Israel is the only one that actually helps us. It is the only stronghold of democracy in the region. If Israel didn't exist, the Middle East would certainly become a much bigger problem than it is now. Human rights will be trampled and there will be attempts to expand outwards since they have no longer have an enemy in their midst.

 

I'll rather spend money on an ally than an enemy, but unfortunately the money is flowing the other way.

Then you and like-minded people can raise money for Israel on your own. To be clear, I don't support using tax dollars for any type of foreign aid for anyone.

[kb5462]

Not American, but I'll weigh in. I'm for a two-state-solution, with international recognition of the state of Palestine, and a suitable solution to Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Furthermore, we need to hold Israel and Palestine accountable for their war crimes - Israel does not have a get-out-of-jail-free card for deliberately targeting UN shelters for Palestinian citizens. Significant human rights abuses are occurring every day in the Occupied West Bank, and those are no more justifiable than Hamas suicide bombers. 

[Nicene Nerd]

Could you expand on this? Are you a supporter of dual-covenant theology?

I'm not sure if there is a particular label associated with my conception, but I see Israel and the Church in terms of flesh and Spirit, of first birth and new birth. God made an irrevocable covenant with Abraham and his fleshly descendants, and upon this covenant the Mosaic covenant was founded. Yet the Mosaic covenant was ultimately incapable of bringing about the necessary transformation in Israel, thus the need for a new covenant and the giving of new life through the Spirit. Jesus came to initiate this new covenant and with it new creation and by giving the Spirit also the new birth. Through this action Israel was corporately born again in the form of the Church, and because the defining relationship of this form of Israel is to Christ (though still through Christ's fleshly link to Abraham), those who share His Spirit in faith are also incorpoated even from among the Gentiles. Now Israel exists in two different modes, a fleshly Israel who's God-given future lies in moving forward into the new covenant given with them, and an Israel of the Spirit consisting of those who, by the flesh, are both Jews and Gentiles but are part of Israel's new covenant in Christ.

[Bryce B.]

Not American, but I'll weigh in. I'm for a two-state-solution, with international recognition of the state of Palestine, and a suitable solution to Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Furthermore, we need to hold Israel and Palestine accountable for their war crimes - Israel does not have a get-out-of-jail-free card for deliberately targeting UN shelters for Palestinian citizens. Significant human rights abuses are occurring every day in the Occupied West Bank, and those are no more justifiable than Hamas suicide bombers.

God did say that Israel belonged to the Jews and not Palestinians *whistles while slinking into a dark corner*

[Telesphore]

God did say that Israel belonged to the Jews and not Palestinians *whistles while slinking into a dark corner*

To which Muslims can easily reply that Allah wishes them, and not the Jews, to reside in Palestine, have ownership of Quds, etc. G-d is a slippery justification for geopolitical affairs.

[PlasmaHam]

To which Muslims can easily reply that Allah wishes them, and not the Jews, to reside in Palestine, have ownership of Quds, etc. G-d is a slippery justification for geopolitical affairs.

  Agreed, from a global perspective, claiming God destined it to them is not convincing to unbelievers.

 

But from a political standpoint, Israel has the greater claim to the land. Muslim forces lost the land during WWI after allying themselves with the doomed Central Powers. British forces ruled the land for 30 years before handing it over to the Jews. Through multiple wars, the Israeli have confirmed their hold on the land. The idea that the Jews just came in and stole the land is just propaganda.

 

The only real claim that the Muslim/Palestine people could make is that these were their traditional lands. But then you realize that the Jews can make the exact same claim.

[Chris-M]

I'm not especially comfortable supporting an apartheid regime with colonial baggage just because it happens to be the most consistent US ally in the region.

Muslim forces lost the land during WWI after allying themselves with the doomed Central Powers.

I'm not sure I'd call it just for ordinary people to lose their home because their government allied with Germany against Russia. Edited June 2, 2016 by Chris-M

[kb5462]

God did say that Israel belonged to the Jews and not Palestinians *whistles while slinking into a dark corner*

 

That doesn't make a difference in terms of war crimes. 

[curryjacket]

That doesn't make a difference in terms of war crimes.

That hasn't stopped American conservatives yet.

[PlasmaHam]

That doesn't make a difference in terms of war crimes. 

 

Every country commits war crimes during war, its not as uncommon as you might think. Anyone with good knowledge of military history knows this. No country is without sin.

I'm not sure I'd call it just for ordinary people to lose their home because their government allied with Germany against Russia.

 

  Do you read history? If you did, then you would likely realize that nearly ever war ends with a country ceding something, typically land. And typically, the conquering nation is not going to give power back to the locals because that is their home, they earned that land. The locals still have property rights, but the conquerors have the political rights.  

[kb5462]

Every country commits war crimes during war, its not as uncommon as you might think. Anyone with good knowledge of military history knows this. No country is without sin.

 

I'm not suggesting that isn't the case, but what I am saying is that purely because something does happen, doesn't mean it should happen. We can't sit on our high horses in the West, with our comfortable lives and our national security, and condemn the Palestinian people for putting their faith in people like Hamas, all the while pouring funds into Israel who are equally violating human rights with our support.

 

I won't support Israel's violation of human rights, any more than I'll support the US/the UK's violation of human rights in Kunduz last October, any more than I'll support the violation of human rights in Rwanda in 1994 etc. Human rights are human rights. 

[Chris-M]

they earned that land.

That's like saying Europeans earned their rule of the Americas because we slaughtered all the Indians living there. For that matter, it's like saying the Arabs could earn the right to rule Israel if they could just militarily dismantle the Israeli government. It might be the way people do things, but to say it's right is pretty dark. Edited June 7, 2016 by Chris-M

[Telesphore]

I think the criticism of Israel in this thread is... a little high. 

[Nicene Nerd]

Meanwhile, the debate about Israelology (which should be renamed Israeology kind of like archaeology) sadly sits to the sidelines.

[Telesphore]

I'm not sure if there is a particular label associated with my conception, but I see Israel and the Church in terms of flesh and Spirit, of first birth and new birth. God made an irrevocable covenant with Abraham and his fleshly descendants, and upon this covenant the Mosaic covenant was founded. Yet the Mosaic covenant was ultimately incapable of bringing about the necessary transformation in Israel, thus the need for a new covenant and the giving of new life through the Spirit. Jesus came to initiate this new covenant and with it new creation and by giving the Spirit also the new birth. Through this action Israel was corporately born again in the form of the Church, and because the defining relationship of this form of Israel is to Christ (though still through Christ's fleshly link to Abraham), those who share His Spirit in faith are also incorpoated even from among the Gentiles. Now Israel exists in two different modes, a fleshly Israel who's God-given future lies in moving forward into the new covenant given with them, and an Israel of the Spirit consisting of those who, by the flesh, are both Jews and Gentiles but are part of Israel's new covenant in Christ.

 

I'm not entirely sure if I can give this post the thorough response it deserves without breaking Rule #5.

[Nicene Nerd]

I'm not entirely sure if I can give this post the thorough response it deserves without breaking Rule #5.

You could always PM me, as I'm interested.