Bryce B. Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Bryce, when will you use the Bible to support your view of baptism? When y'all make sense to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 When y'all make sense to me Ah, so something arbitrary that you can postpone indefinitely. That's what we were all expecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicene Nerd Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 When y'all make sense to me Bryce, I'll try to make it simple and detailed, then. If you wish to respond to this post, try to respond to specific points and Bible verses. What is baptism? It is the way God has provided for us to enter the new life of Christ's body, the Church, and entrance into this new life is called "regeneration," or being "born again." It is an act of grace, God's act by the Holy Spirit, which He gives as a gift. It is not man's work to earn anything. In support of these points, only using the KJV just for you: We enter the Church, with is Christ's body, through baptism: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body." 1 Corinthians 12:13a We receive the Holy Spirit through baptism: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13a,c "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38 We are cleansed of sins in baptism: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." Acts 2:38 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:11 We are regenerated/born again in baptism: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Titus 3:5. I should point out that all of the church fathers agreed "washing of regeneration" means baptism. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5. Again, "born of water and of the Spirit" was traditionally taken as baptism. Baptism connects us to Jesus, especially His death: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:27 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:12 That's all the stuff I wanted to cover. So, Bryce, if you want to contribute to this thread in a productive and interesting way, how would you respond to these various sections? This time, please use the Bible in your answer. If there are no Bible verses or references at all, it doesn't count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saved.2. Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20John%20Rice/Baptism/b_04.htm I haven't read quite all of this yet, but I read a little bit of it, and it already makes since. You guys should read it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicene Nerd Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20John%20Rice/Baptism/b_04.htm I haven't read quite all of this yet, but I read a little bit of it, and it already makes since. You guys should read it.. Jesus-is-savior.com is an awful, demonic website. This guy is a radical KJV-onlyist, preaches consistently against things such as women wearing pants, contemporary Christian music, John MacArthur, John Calvin, Martin Luther, the Catholic Church, and pretty much everyone. He thinks almost everyone but himself is a heretic. He does not know anything about proper Biblical interpretatiom. Of course, that would just be ad hominem by itself. In regards to his actual arguments, he gets it wrong from the very beginning by calling baptism a "work," and saying that salvation comes from God's mercy instead of baptism. The rest of the article mostly just involves him twisting verses all the way around to keep them from saying what they actually say. His whole argument, and very many arguments against baptismal regeneration, go away when you realize that baptism is not a work of any kind, or magic, but a gift from God in mercy and grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel 1525 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20John%20Rice/Baptism/b_04.htm I haven't read quite all of this yet, but I read a little bit of it, and it already makes since. You guys should read it.. Probably not the best website to quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesusismyticket Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 So, without sounding patronizing (because it's really not intended to be), I have been baptized twice. Once at the age of six, the other at the age of 16 as a part of my then true conversion to Christianity. Am I then regenerate? Well, yes and no. From my teachings of the Church, if you deny your faith then the graces of Baptism are gone. Now, if you come back to the faith then the graces you received are again there. Of course, the Catholic Church also believes you only get baptized ONCE. XD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauralei Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Alright, I didn't read the whole thread because it was giving me headache, no joke. Apologies if this point was mentioned earlier. As regards saying something other then repentance is involved in our salvation, the Bible says that about such diverse things as baptism, childbearing (1 Tim 2:15), and good teaching (1 Tim 4:16). It seems on my first reading that many of these verses could be easily interpreted to be referring to sanctification. "...Ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified..." for example, does not at all seem to necessarily equate washing and justification. How about Romans 2 regarding circumcision? Change the wording a bit to relate to baptism and the new covenant. Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusDied4Me Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Clearly says the we are saved by FAITH. And God gives us eternal life in Heaven due to ou r faith. But water baptism is still very essential. I support water baptism. In Luke 23, the thief was not water baptised but he went to Heaven with Jesus! It is a symbol that we ask for repentance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicene Nerd Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Clearly says the we are saved by FAITH. I agree with that. Is there any reason we cannot both be saved by grace through faith and have baptism be the moment or means of regeneration? As an example of what I mean, I ask that you answer me this. How can one be born again? And God gives us eternal life in Heaven due to our faith. What do you mean by the words "due to?" In Luke 23, the thief was not water baptised but he went to Heaven with Jesus! Everyone who believes in baptismal regeneration would agree with this. Usually, it is understood that someone who dies without the chance to be baptized is still counted as one who is baptized. It is a symbol that we ask for repentance. Can you support this Biblically? Most of the time in Scripture when I see the word "baptism" used, it talks about major elements of salvation taking place, not about symbolism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusDied4Me Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) Mark 1:4New Living Translation (NLT) 4 This messenger was John the Baptist. He was in the wilderness and preached that people should be baptized to show that they had repented of their sins and turned to God to be forgiven. I do agree that Water Baptism is important. However, many assume that WATER can save you. I believe that it is symbolism to say that you have asked for repentance. For example, communion is symbolism that we thank Jesus for cleanses us from our sin. Likewise, I believe, water baptism has a similar concept. It is to show to witnesses that we are serious about following God. Many people view it as a required work to 'obtain' salvation. Ephesians 2 8-9 clearly tells us that if we believe in Jesus Christ, we are saved. Take John 3:16 ( you probably know it off by heart, so no need for quote ) for example. Ephesians 1:7New Living Translation (NLT) 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. Jesus' blood sacrifice is enough for us! Ephesians 2:15New Living Translation (NLT) 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. Many people stress the law but God is Love! I encourage water baptism but I think people should know it is GOD who saves and not water. This is how, and others, understood these quotes. I have many more but time does not allow me. If you don't mind, Nicene Nerd, we can continue with this topic as it is of high importance. Jesus orders baptism, and I am fully for it! But Jesus Christ has saves us already! Romans 6: 1-11 reveals that water baptism symbolizes that we are dead to sin and made alive to God. I do encourage water baptism. My message is that God saves us! And that (Galatians 5:14) 14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” That is how we should start our journey with God ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Joel Edited November 30, 2015 by JesusDied4Me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicene Nerd Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Mark 1:4New Living Translation (NLT) 4 This messenger was John the Baptist. He was in the wilderness and preached that people should be baptized to show that they had repented of their sins and turned to God to be forgiven. I do agree that Water Baptism is important. However, many assume that WATER can save you. I believe that it is symbolism to say that you have asked for repentance. For example, communion is symbolism that we thank Jesus for cleanses us from our sin. Likewise, I believe, water baptism has a similar concept. It is to show to witnesses that we are serious about following God. Many people view it as a required work to 'obtain' salvation. Ephesians 2 8-9 clearly tells us that if we believe in Jesus Christ, we are saved. Take John 3:16 ( you probably know it off by heart, so no need for quote ) for example. Ephesians 1:7New Living Translation (NLT) 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. Jesus' blood sacrifice is enough for us! Ephesians 2:15New Living Translation (NLT) 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. Many people stress the law but God is Love! I encourage water baptism but I think people should know it is GOD who saves and not water. This is how, and others, understood these quotes. I have many more but time does not allow me. If you don't mind, Nicene Nerd, we can continue with this topic as it is of high importance. Jesus orders baptism, and I am fully for it! But Jesus Christ has saves us already! Romans 6: 1-11 reveals that water baptism symbolizes that we are dead to sin and made alive to God. I do encourage water baptism. My message is that God saves us! And that (Galatians 5:14) 14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” That is how we should start our journey with God ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Joel No offense, but I would request that if you wish to respond to me in particular, that you would address the specific questions I asked you. If you worked that way, you would find soon that, for example, I think it can be right to say that baptism saves without saying that water saves, but instead insisting that God alone saves. I also deny that baptism is a work we do to get saved, but a gift God does to us to save us. So I request if you want to continue this conversation that you return to my previous post and address my specific questions and responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-M Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 many assume that WATER can save you. No one assumes that water can save anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicene Nerd Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 No one assumes that water can save anyone. Well, except for maybe some of the ignorant, superstitious masses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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